Well this…but not for the reasons you might think. [upl-image-preview url=https://i.imgur.com/7rAH8qr.png] **My grr, is that with the guy being off his gourd and full of fertilizer….WHY does anyone still buy his machines?** They are super expensive considering the basic tech and actual build cost, because of the commercial model adopted (not built by him, but by Fracino, who also ship them),….while he spouts bile and nonsense from the other side of the planet. he didn't like LH review, which I thought was quite kind to the machine, went on a rant and later added me into it, especially as I don't trash Londinium threads on HB (their mods would never let me do that)…just nuts, absolutely nuts? I believe he added me into it, because the ACS Evo, Vostok and Nurri are seriously affecting his business. This negative effect is something he bought upon himself when one of his own associates at the time (who made a little bit of money from Londiniums), tried to destroy my online presence on another forum, which irked me a little. **My constructive way of dealing with that was not to rant, but push ACS to finally make the Evo and help them on that journey (for absolutely free). He has only one person to blame and it's not me…he should look to his good mate in the UK.** Especially as I was at the time about to leave the online coffee world in 2019 and just carry on quietly at home….but the final trolling made me reconsider…what a good job I did! I know I say always play the ball not the man….but in this case the man is not only the face of his company, but the owner, where your warranty resides and any help on his **closed forum**. God help any owners that get on the wrong side of him… *P.S. OK, In a way he is right I do get a benefit in kind, **the sheer pleasure of helping ACS (for free)** to produce a much **superior** machine, at a **fair price**. Of course I will get even more pleasure in future from now on.*

> @"Cuprajake"#p56118 hes also very protected on home barista and why i ended up leaving there as you cant speak freely, Same. I posted a bit there but witnessed some truly bizarre and what appeared to be overzealous ‘moderation’ (control) over the Mazzer Philos thread. Whatever happened to the First Amendment? What was odd is that some criticism goes somewhat unchecked, yet criticism of other things results in threads getting locked. I’m guessing it’s linked to sponsorship in some way. One of the beauties of being an independent forum!

The thing is, when Londinium first came to the market in 2012, their L1 was a good machine, compared to what was generally available. of course it had its own faults as I can testify. But, as time progressed more machines utilising the technology of the day came in to play. Londinium then realised that by following traditional espresso markets (meaning medium to medium dark beans) they were excluding themselves from what was becoming the ever so fashionable lighter roasted bean owner. The meant tweeks and the L1 model became the LR then the LR24 which finally through control of pre-infusion allowed lighter bean drinkers to come into the Londinium market. I believe Londinium cannot do very much else to the LR24, yet it is already very outdated. To pursue the line @"DavecUK"#1 started, Fracino are responsible for building and delivering the finished product. Londinium 'rent' factory production time. Londinium instruct Fracino they have sold a machine and a box bearing Londiniums name is sent out. The price that Fracino charge Londinium includes all their costs and profit. Londinium then add their profit margin. This makes no sense at all and is the reason that the price of an LR24, currently £3743.04 delivered in the UK. The technology in the LR24 is now outdated. The thing I find odd about the Vectis, is the usual Londinium method of bringing something new to the market is to give one to their influencers, especially in the UK who plug the heck out of it in return for a free machine. I noticed that the early demo of the Vectis went to Holland and not to the usual UK contact. He received or started to publicise his machine on July 20th. The chat lasted 7 days and no posts have been made since July 27th. Back in the bad old days of CFUK the Londinium fanboys had a strong presence on the forum and they mined the hell out of it. Then as we know, CFUK was sold and from that was born our own Coffeetime with around 1100 members and is a vibrant forum, and Talk Coffee who have removed their stats from the home page, presumably in embarrassment and have plenty of days when no posts are made at all. This means how do Londinium influence sales in the UK now and possibly explains the lack of chat in the UK of the little Londinium machine. With the much higher than expected sales price of £1541.67, to which you add VAT then delivery makes it £1869.12. That is a lot of money however you look at it. This means that the US market becomes very important for the simple reason that they do not pay VAT although the do pay lower local sales tax. It is a shame to see the very public meltdown that Reiss has had and is continuing to have. It is pathetic in the way he chooses to attack **individuals** making criticism very personal. I hope he grows up and in the process, grows a pair!

> @"DavecUK"#p56117 I know I say always play the ball not the man Ad hominem attacks show the author in a very bad light. Moreover, it shows that their argument is weak so they have to trash the author's reputation. Way back, on another forum, there was a cabal who routinely trashed DaveC's reputation at every given opportunity - making the same snide untrue comments that Reiss parrotted on his blog above. They did their level best to have DaveC banned and were, briefly, successful until the forum owner saw sense lifted the ban and invited DaveC to become a moderator which enabled us to silence the cabal and turn around the forum. For Reiss to parrott those self same snide untrue comments is revealing. He has done himself no favours and does not come out of this at all well. If he were man enough, he would apologise to DaveC. But in the echo chamber that is Londinium, I don't think that will happen.

I split this off because it adulterates another thread and I thought it important enough to have it's own thread. It all kicked off when @"lancehedrick"#742 produced a review of the Londinium Vectis which Reiss clearly didn't like, although I thought it was very fair, in fact more than fair. **There was some comment on HB which started here and seemed to triggger Reiss Gunson**. https://www.home-barista.com/levers/user-experience-londinium-vectis-t88435-180.html#p956925 https://www.home-barista.com/levers/londinium-vectis-spring-lever-lance-hedrick-review-t90220.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylPm5erWnws&t=774s #### The owner of Londiniums response was to throw his toys out of the pram and post **[this](https://londiniumespresso.com/blog)**, which was amended a few times to eventually add me into it as well! I think **his behaviour is the antithesis of what we should expect from a company**, even if it is a one man band with his machines built and delivered by another company, he has no factory full of employees to worry about, so the only person being damaged by this is himself (apart from those customers who has fallen out with him). When they do they are often excommunicated from the private Londinium (support) forum and I have had people tell me they were informed their self repair parts warranty was now invalid. *I have in the past removed a few negative posts about the Londinium machines/Service before most people would have seen them. I don't think I can extend that courtesy to Reiss Gunson any longer. We are non commercial, have no advertisers and hence nothing to gain by protecting him any longer.*

Back in late 2012, I ordered a brand new L1 but the Luxe version. This came with glass side panels and a polished set of pipes and boiler that were covered in a see through material (like varnish but not varnish if you follow) to protect them. In those days there was a serious queue for machines as Fracino only had a small amount of line production per week. In early 2013, mine turned up and I could not have been happier. I had no experience with levers but loved the concept. After a couple of weeks use, it started to leak from every connection that carried water. What happened, was that the coated pipes and nuts could not be tightened enough at the factory, so they sent them out anyway. Reiss suggested wrapping the nuts with a cloth and trying to tighten. I was not happy with this solution and sent the machine back. It lay for a while and a compromise was reached. I would buy it back with the glass panels removed and normal steel ones fitted with all the nuts tightened. A few months later, an L1 Luxe appeared for sale on the Londinium blog. A cafe in Edinburgh was buying the first Londinium 2 group and Reiss agreed to help promote the sale of their Luxe. I emailed him and asked if he would transfer the remaining warranty. I thought if their machine had been used in a cafe without issue, then it would work for me. He said, 'absolutely' so I made arrangements with the guys and bought it. I found out later that they had not used it in the cafe as it was under construction and had barely been used at all. About a month later (my habit is to switch the machine on at 8 am and turn off around 4pm) I noticed that all the pipes that had been nice and shiny were turning pink. On closer inspection they were building up a deposit on them that you could scrape off in small pieces.I emailed Reiss between Christmas and the New Year to explain what had happened, for him to tell me the machine had no warranty. I pointed out that I had emailed him and asked for confirmation and he had said 'absolutely'. He then claimed he thought I was trying to help a friend buy the machine and had he known that it was for me he would not have agreed to honour the warranty. I could go on and on, but for some folks, this is a good example of Reiss turning nasty when it suits him, which contrasts with the 'legendary' customer service he offers some folks. https://youtube.com/shorts/3HATBEIwg_U

I think this thread is a mistake. My understanding is that this forum was created from a desire to move beyond the factionalism, name calling, toxicity and pettiness that existed elsewhere. Creating this thread doesn't seem aligned with that aim. You won't change this individuals behaviour. The way I see it, there are two option; you can either leave him to it, and have the schadenfreude of watching him destroy his reputation and business, or you can respond in kind to his toxicity. Don't take the bait.

Why you might not want to buy a Londinium

Systemic

Gagaryn You’d be better talking to him in private if you want to try to influence his behaviour.

Rather difficult if you’ve been cancelled.

Over the years, Reiss has regularly trashed other manufacturers’ kit but cries foul if anyone raises the slightest criticism of Londinium no matter how valid. He is not averse to making claims about his products some of which are fanciful at best and downright misleading at worst.

DaveC had to endure years of trolling by a cabal who used every opportunity to accuse him of being paid for reviews either in kind or monetarily. Yet one of DaveC’s principal trollers had a relationship with Reiss where he got, gratis, the latest Londinium iteration over which, of course, he lavished much praise without disclosing he had received the machine free. So it is very revealing that Reiss chose to raise the pay to play troll in his rant at Hendrick’s review.

The old saying, ’if you can’t take it, don’t dish it’ springs to mind. Reiss might be advised to reflect on it.

Loonster

Engineering is the art of compromise. Improving something in one area often results in negatives in other areas.

If you own the compromises that were made, they are not necessarily flaws, but design decisions. If you become defensive and confrontational, it’s like admitting that the decisions were not well thought out and truly are flaws.

Gagaryn

dfk41 You cannot talk to people like that @Gargaryn.

Yup - I agree, which is why I suggested he should simply be left to slowly destroy himself. The response was that he needs to be stood up to and called out. I disagree - I think what’s done is done, let it lie. But if there really is a burning desire to stand up to the bully - best done in private.

This thread won’t change anything and to think it will is daft - as the young folk say - the haters will still hate. It just becomes a big pile on. It’s pointless and ugly.

Nobody comes away looking good from a public slanging match - even those who know they are right! My opinion - you’ll have yours.

Anyway, you do you. I’m out. Pitchforks out, burn the witch. :-)

dfk41

Gagaryn Pitch forks not needed. Believe me, if the right approach was to make contact behind the scenes then that would have been done. I say this once again. When someone is standing in front of you, telling you what he is going to do with you blow by blow, you are most welcome to talk as much as you want…….me, he gets decked and the problem is solved. The point of the thread is not to change anything. The point of the thread is to tell Reiss and his cronies that we will no longer sit and watch as they play vile games to which they are used to getting away with………..because no one in the past has stood up and been counted. Bullies continue to bully until they are stopped. Whoever wrote the pen is mightier than the sword is a daft twat!

Gagaryn

DavecUK I wonder how his customer feels about his real name being splashed out all over the internet

Probably not a great idea to repost his name here then, that’s just making a bad situation worse.

Systemic Ad hominem attacks show the author in a very bad light. Moreover, it shows that their argument is weak so they have to trash the author’s reputation.

Agreed - disappointing that this thread retaliates by doing the same thing back.

DavecUK bullies don’t stop until you stand up to them and call it out….which is all I am doing.

Why not just stand up to them directly wherever these comments are hosted? They aren’t even here as far as I know, they certainly aren’t posting on this thread so it seems a strange to describe this thread as standing up to them.

dfk41 The point of the thread is to tell Reiss and his cronies that we will no longer sit and watch as they play vile games to which they are used to getting away with

As above - wrong place to do that - are “Reiss and his cronies” even on this forum? If you want to fight them on the beaches, go to the beaches. Get somebody to hold your coat while you deck him. This thread is more akin to going home and whinging.

FadedFrontiers

Although I’d seen some of this alluded to before it’s interesting to read more about everyone’s experiences with Londonium and Reiss especially on the old forum. I do think it’s useful to have this as a warning as some newer members may be unaware and be considering purchasing one, so it’s only fair for them to know what they’re getting themselves in for.

I also wouldn’t have seen the blog post had it not been mentioned here but having read it I have to say it does seem quite unhinged, especially blaming Dave and a customer out of the blue - not a good approach and I’m sure he’ll regret it.

My question to everyone here though is - putting Reiss’ history and unprofessional behaviour to one side for a second - does he have legitimate complaints when it comes to Hedrick’s review of the Vectis? The reason I ask this is because I’ve seen this with coffee YouTubers but also other reviewers in areas like tech and so on, where they don’t really spend much time with the item and often get basic facts wrong without going back to manufacturers first or seeking other opinions, so I’m interested if this is the case of rushing a review out and missing basic points or if Reiss is just clutching at straws and his own defences of the machine are incorrect.

Drama aside, the Vectis looks like a nice enough little machine which may appeal to Cremina or Pavoni fans who have some money to burn and want a smaller footprint compared to the more technically advanced Vostoks or Levas of this world. Not for me and I presume many on here but it’s good there’s so much choice out there for lever fans. It’s a shame Reiss and others seemed to have turned it into some turf war.

DavecUK

FadedFrontiers My question to everyone here though is - putting Reiss’ history and unprofessional behaviour to one side for a second - does he have legitimate complaints when it comes to Hedrick’s review of the Vectis? The reason I ask this is because I’ve seen this with coffee YouTubers but also other reviewers in areas like tech and so on, where they don’t really spend much time with the item and often get basic facts wrong without going back to manufacturers first or seeking other opinions, so I’m interested if this is the case of rushing a review out and missing basic points or if Reiss is just clutching at straws and his own defences of the machine are incorrect.

I really thought Lance was a lot kinder than he needed to be, I’m sure there were things he didn’t mention so as to not damage Reiss business. It’s not in LH interest to turn companies against him. Sure Londinium won’t use him again but the way Reiss puts it across LH did a hatchet job….this is quite business affecting for LH if other companies believe what Reiss said. Especially as that review was in no way a hatchet job, just factual and constructive.

Londinium machines will never improve if Reiss takes this attitude and the faithful say things on other forums like “so what if the welding in the drip tray looks bad, I never look in there”…when Lance mentioned it and said that another tray leaked at these welds! This gets completely glossed over by the faithful and obscures the truth.

ACS invested in a Laser welder this year to make the welds neater and more reliable. Plus lots of other equipment to fabricate their machines better (computerised metal bender, laser cutter etc… Plus they practice continuous improvement if they get critical comments (mostly from me).

I think Lance could actually have said a lot more, but held back.

DavecUK

FadedFrontiers - does he have legitimate complaints when it comes to Hedrick’s review of the Vectis? The reason I ask this is because I’ve seen this with coffee YouTubers but also other reviewers in areas like tech and so on, where they don’t really spend much time with the item and often get basic facts wrong without going back to manufacturers first or seeking other opinions, so I’m interested if this is the case of rushing a review out and missing basic points or if Reiss is just clutching at straws and his own defences of the machine are incorrect.

Interestingly my attention was drawn to a video today, which seemed to be a puff piece/paid for review for Londinium. it did however provide some great technical information for someone like me to work out some details you won’t read about online.

1st - Lance Hedric did say about 6 bar, but when slowing his video down it almost reached 7 bar…which correlates with my findings. So here’s some tech stuff I worked out/gleaned from another video. The shot times are cumulative starting from lever lift and using a SCACE which simulates coffee/puck flow rate

0s Shot start (lever lift)
3s max pressure 6.89 bar
8s Pressure has declined to 4.8 bar
23s Pressure has declined we don’t know but if it dropped 2 bar from the peak, it could well be 2.8 bar or less as spring pressure declines faster as the lever moves up
28s again we don’t know, but I would imagine most of the last 5 seconds is at no real pressure.

This would correlate well with videos I have seen on line of the Vectis being demonstrated, but where no details at all are given.

Temperature - it tends to get hotter and hotter the longer it’s left and presumably the higher than 100C temps are because the interior of the PF is under brewing pressure:

From turning the machine on - 20 Minutes - temp peaked at 91C
40 Minutes - temp peaked at 96C
60 Minutes - temp peaked at 103C
80 Minutes - temp peaked at 107C
100 Minutes - temp peaked at 108C
120 Minutes - temp peaked at 110C
140 Minutes - no change from previous test (point of stability)

Interestingly it also said there was a consistent drop of 9-11C during the shot!

P.S. The pressures and temperatures seem way outside the range of any realistic espresso shot

delta76

wow that’s petty. I never wanted to buy a Londinium, due to their prices, but now I have another reason …

Pompeyexile

People often spout when deciding to buy a machine about the importance of the after sales service, and especially what sort of response you would get should you have an issue or more importantly, an ongoing one. I know nothing compared to most of you on here, but if what I am reading here about the sort of response this Reiss chappy gives, not just to reviewers or actual owners, then no matter how good the machine purports to be, I would never (even if I could afford it) even consider buying it.

I didn’t see Lance Hendrick’s review to be particularly damning, it just pointed out a few issues like the 8 bar spring only giving 5.5 to 6 bar, and he even praised Reiss for some of his response, like regarding the Pstat position. He said that Reiss is an ‘awsom’ person, who was very ‘responsive’ in sending him a lot of the replacement parts, which as far as he was concerned, shows he is trying to make the machine better. He even mentioned the ‘great’ on-line community.

So, for me this Reiss chappie ignored any praise given by Lance and focused only on what were some of the negatives, albeit what to me seemed realtively minor ones.

There is a saying which I think is quite appropriate to Reiss…

’The trouble with most of us, is that we’d rather be ruined by praise than saved by criticism’

delta76

I do not exactly like Lance (personally do not like his presentation style, as I thought he often goes over the top, and it has been pointed out here multiple times that he gets things incorrectly), but Reiss’s response is … something else Lance Hedrick’s review of the Cremina killer he doesnt want to talk about: Londinium Vectis (londiniumespresso.com)

DavecUK

delta76 Didn’t take long for the Title to be changed to Cremina Killer…this Fracino built new machine is already a Cremina killer (a proven machine, which has been on the market for decades)….thus justifying it’s ridiculously high price.

Doesn’t hide his light under a bushel does he!

dfk41

Cremina killer……that is so funny! Comparing Swiss manufacturing (and price) to a new machine with issues that is built in Birmingham by Fracino. Now, do not get me wrong. I have had a few Fracino models, namely the Heavenly and the Cherub and the Piccino and they were absolutely fine back in the day. I liked the Heavenly so much I had 2 or 3 of them. But, Fracino seem to have built their name and market either overseas or in the catering market in the UK. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. A British made and designed machine, but, in my humble opinion when you mention a brand you build up a picture. Think of KVdW for example.

The Londinium range are built by Fracino. They use a lot of off the shelf parts (as many machines do). SO I am unsure once the fairy dust has been sprinkled, how the Londinium range suddenly appear to be top end machines. What is this based on? I would quite like to try one of the Fracino Retro lever machines though looking at its specs it has a 7 litre boiler suggesting it is more aimed at the commercial/catering market than the domestic, so that is indeed a shame.

I owned a Cremina for a year or so. It was a joy to own simply because it was without issue for me making one or two cups at a time 3 or 4 times a day. Having converted over to the 54mm pf size I am sold on smaller deeper baskets. I also have a La Pavoni (that I do not really like) and an Arrarex Caravel that I adore playing with every of now and again. The Cremina I had was a ’67 model, probably from the early seventies. This made it around 50 years old and when I say it was still going strong I meant it! I maybe wrong but for example they use,

"Inside, we use nothing but stainless steel, chrome and brass – even the boiler is made from chrome steel.: (source https://www.olympia-express.ch/en/products/arguments)

You have to pay for real quality. It would be interesting to know why the Vectis chassis for example, is still made of Zintec powder coated iron. I seriously doubt that it will make the 50 year mark! The water fill system on the Vectis is interesting and some acknowledgement has to be given for that. Personally my work routine on every machine I have owned is before I switch it on to check the water level! That way I know it is set for the day. The Vectis has a glass tube clearly showing the volume in the reservoir so why is so much importance placed on the fill method? Some might think it very important, others not so.

It is a long time to wait, but I suspect in another 50 years the Cremina will still be going strong!

JonWoo187

dfk41 Well stated as back in the day I had a Cremina, think it was built in 1977. I did a top/bottom rebuild on it as the previous owner likely NEVER cleaned the thing and it was found at a yard sale for $3 as his wife wanted it gone. When I parted with it as I simply need more daily volume that it couldn’t give on the boiler size it was still going strong and at that point had the original element, p-stat, etc. and was 35 yrs old. Some might think the Cremina is overpriced/overrated, but if I needed to have one machine the rest of this life regardless of cost, etc. it’d be the Cremina as IMBHO nothing else will ever match that level of quality/longevity/performance with so little preventive maintenance. If I ever decide to cut back on my daily much needed espresso I won’t hesitate to find a Cremina. Paired with the Helor 106 and the world is yours for outstanding espresso and being a part of the hands on process makes it all worth it.

chlorox

Speaking of londonium, I was alwayas curious about the r24’s method of changing the grouphead temp by changing the preinfusion pressure. Does that method actually work reliably and predictably?

DavecUK

chlorox Speaking of Londinium, I was always curious about the r24’s method of changing the grouphead temp by changing the preinfusion pressure. Does that method actually work reliably and predictably?

No, it’s complete nonsense…………………..there’s no way it can really make any difference to group temp (I 100% guarantee it). I think they claim it changes the shot temp, but to do so the fill rate would have to dramatically change at say 2 bar vs 4 bar and it won’t. Even if it did work, it would not be predictable or reliable.

If you think about it you can’t have all these things in a thermosyphon machine many are mutually exclusive:

stable brew temp even after standing
never overheats
can warm up fast with flushing
is stable shot after shot
always at the right temperature (whatever that is??)
can change shot temperature using different preinfusion pressures

The problem with the Londinium range is underpowered springs and a large proportion of the shot at a lower than desirable pressure. Plus the inherent Lever compromise of steam pressure and brew temp….which doesn’t exist in dual boiler levers.

The LR24 is top money for bottom end tech and construction.

chlorox

DavecUK

Thanks for the explanation. I recall an owner of that machine quoting boyles law on a forum but I was wondering if that was actually a verified fact because it seemed to me to be most difficult way of changing temp that one could possibly choose even if it did work. Why not just change the grouphead temp directly rwther than messing about with preinfusion pressure, I thought…

capuchin

Well there’s a brand I won’t be buying :D

dfk41

chlorox Ah, you forget the magic Londinium fairy dust!

dfk41

Here is an example of the Vectis beating the build quality of the Cremina!

The still was taken from this review on Youtube

John_Yossarian

DavecUK “I’m thinking of splitting this off into a separate thread titled. “Why you might not want to buy a Londinium”.”
Now you are talking 😃

chlorox

DavecUK

This is interesting - could it be that the reason why many owners of londonium r24 may be for the sae reason why lower pressure shots like from the lambro are so well liked by many people? Perhaps the owner of londonium intentionally specced lower pressure springs for this reason though attributing rhe quality of the shots to other factors.

dfk41

chlorox anything is possible, but I doubt it!

DavecUK

chlorox Perhaps the owner of londonium intentionally specced lower pressure springs for this reason though attributing rhe quality of the shots to other factors.

I don’t think so he was very insistent in his 9 bar comments…

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