Hello, I recently purchased a Lelit Elizabeth machine, and I'm noticing a strange issue with boiler temperature. This is my first machine, so I don't have much reference as to how a PID is supposed to manage temps, but I was under the impression that it should make continual adjustments to keep the temp within a narrow band of the set temp. My unit seems to be behaving quite differently - sometimes it will appear to be doing this, for example, if I have it set to 93c, it will briefly dip to 92 or 91, then bump back up till it hits maybe 94, and so on; however, quite frequently I notice the temp dropping all the way down to 83-84 during idling before the boiler kicks back on and brings it all the way back up to 93+. It seems to happen whether I'm using the default LCC settings, or Dave Corbey's adjusted settings. Is this normal? If not, is there any adjustment that can make the boiler kick on more aggressively, or did I just get a lemon that needs to be exchanged? It seems to me that the PID algorithm should be able to figure out it needs to run the boiler before it hits 9c off target.

Hello! No, this is not normal. Have you switched off standby? Could you please tell - with a video - every single value in the advanced settings? Thanks!

Is the machine fully warm when you get this behaviour e.g. is it still doing it after 1 hour on?

Thanks. Yes, I have turned off standby mode, and yes, this is well after the machine has been on for over an hour. I leave my machine turned on all day, attached to a smart surge protector, and have been checking on it randomly. About 3/4 of the time when I check, it is within a degree of the target temp, and I often see it bumping up or down slightly (I assume this means the PID is properly stabilizing), the other 1/4 of the time, it will be off by several degrees, and every time this happens, it continues to slowly fall until it hits around 83c, and then goes back up. I tried to upload a video showing the settings but if I compress it down to fit within the size limit, the text is unreadable. My values are: KPc 0.2, KIc 0.07, KDc 10, Bc 30, KPs 2.0, KIs 0.0, KDs 0.0, Bs 1, EC 10, ES 0, F01 0, TR1 1, TOT n/a, BLS1 3, BLS2 3, BLP1 5, BLP2 5, PRG 6. The issue seems to still be a problem even after doing a factory reset to default LCC settings. Could you tell me how the temperature is SUPPOSED to behave while the machine is idle (say 30+ minutes after pulling a shot, with eco mode off)? Does your machine stay exactly at the set temperature? Does it fluctuate +/- a degree or 2? Does it dip several degrees and then come back up?

> @"gobucks"#p6259 Does it fluctuate +/- a degree or 2 Yes. > @"gobucks"#p6259 Does it dip several degrees and then come back up? Only after pulling a shot or if you turn the steam boiler on from cold.

I spoke to the seller of the unit, he said that these types of units are not really designed to be left on all day, and if they are left on, they will eventually start to drop the temp. Is this accurate? Is the problem that I'm leaving the unit on too long, or should the temp be stable for hours on end?

Is it just me or are there alot of Lelit quality issue problems people are posting on this forum with new Lelit machines. Is this why 'Whole Latte Love' don't stock Lelit due to quality / reliability? … I mean their machines have all the great features, but reliability is questionable.

@"DavecUK"#p6256 Yes it is doing it after 15 minutes, 1 hour, etc. How long SHOULD the machine be able to keep a stable (say, +/- 1c) temp?

> @"gobucks"#p6263 and if they are left on, they will eventually start to drop the temp. I’d ask your retailer to explain how on earth this is possible. Most likely they haven’t got a clue what they are talking about and are just making an excuse to avert dealing with the issue if there’s one. Maybe the components get tired and “drop the ball” eventually? Maybe the algorithm only works for 10 minutes? Crickey. 🤦♂️ The temperature is controlled by means of a temp sensor and a PID algorithm. Providing its tuned well, it will keep the temperature at the set target by increasing heat when it drops below a certain threshold. It will then overshoot slightly, and try to correct itself until it gets there. There’s more to it, of course. I linked an article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller The only possibility I can think of is that your PID parameters are so badly tuned that it errors so much that eventually (after 15 minutes) it gets itself into some sort of irrecoverable state. But then you’d see other crazy symptoms, like overshooting quite a bit. And you tried two set of parameters, all leading to the same outcome. In over 1.5 years of ownership, I never noticed such a thing. Granted I usually turn the machine off after I made a coffee, but there are times when I leave it on for longer too. But I might be wrong. Maybe Dave knows something I’m totally unaware of with that machine.

I’ve had mine about 8 months and not experienced this. It comes on at 6:30am on a timer and is mostly left on constantly until 3:30pm. This is every day. The temperature is always at the target temperature except immediately after a shot, whereby it takes a minute or less to recover. If I turn the steam boiler on after being in eco mode for example, the group temperature will drop a couple degrees but again will re stabilise in a minute or so. Lately I’ve been turning the machine off in between coffees and it just takes a few minutes to stabilise at target temp. I’ve used Dave Corbys parameters from the start. @"drdre89"#219, yes I’ve had a couple of issues from new but nothing to worry much about except the opv overshoot. All my issues were resolved with help from @"MediumRoastSteam"#51 and @"DavecUK"#1. Retailers/Lelit…. Not so much!! I would have to question Lelit’s QC but all in all it’s a great machine really - when it works as it should

> @"gobucks"#p6263 I spoke to the seller of the unit, he said that these types of units are not really designed to be left on all day, and if they are left on, they will eventually start to drop the temp. Is this accurate? No, it's BS > @"drdre89"#p6267 Is it just me or are there alot of Lelit quality issue problems people are posting on this forum with new Lelit machines. Is this why ‘Whole Latte Love’ don’t stock Lelit due to quality / reliability? … > > I mean their machines have all the great features, but reliability is questionable. Lelit sell a lot of machines, the other problem is sometimes the customers don't fully appreciate how the machine is working/should be used. This is because the machines are well priced and rich features. For many customers it's their first proper machine, or even their first machine. Many times the forum sees issues based around incorrect usage, use of pre ground coffee, inadequate grinders, poor water etc.. This is not to say there are not sometimes issues, Covid really hasn't helped with component reliability, but they are not as widespread as you might think on % terms. In terms of Whole Latte love, I don't know, but usually retailers who don't stock a particular machine, give reasons…how accurate those reasons are I don't know. The other thing to consider is…customer buy machine, totally happy…doesn't say anything. Customers with problems have a tendency to want to post about it somewhere, either to get it fixed or to let other people know…it's human nature. I think it would look quite different if all the people completely happy with their machine posted how much they like it…human nature being what it is…that often doesn't happen. One thing that's clear, Lelit definitely care and take some trouble to do all the insider videos, possibly because they realise it's a customers first machine. The thing to remember is; prosumer machines from all manufacturers tend to be made with similar generic components and all have the same potential for issues. The LCC (made by Gicar, the little oled display) is a components that mainly Lelit seems to use, it contains a 64 bit risc chip, is very powerful and can run a lot of complex functions. It seems to be hugely reliable. So I'm surprised other manufacturers don't use them, perhaps because they are not cheap.

Lelit Elizabeth PID temp stability

gobucks

I ran the unit in eco mode with the steam boiler disabled, and it did seem to have a more stable temp. I haven’t sat there staring at it all day, but every time I’ve walked by since I turned the machine on about an hour ago, it’s at 92-93 (set at 93). I’m not sure if the issue is the limited US power outlets, or the smart switch I’m using, or if I am stressing the system by running my steam boiler too hot, but it definitely seems to have something to do with power management.

If it indeed turns out that the machine is being limited by power availability in the US, I will be somewhat annoyed that I chose a dual boiler over a HX machine like the Mara X, but on the other hand I can probably work around it, and I’d be happy if the unit is not defective. Does anyone know if it’s possible to buy a 20A cable to give some extra juice to the machine? I have 20A hookups in my kitchen.

DavecUK

gobucks Does anyone know if it’s possible to buy a 20A cable to give some extra juice to the machine? I have 20A hookups in my kitchen.

I can’t remember if the Lelit is hard or soft coded for the USA, but even if you had a 20A outlet, it depends whether the wiring in the machine can support simultaneous operation. The one bit of good news is it won’t affect the temp much, it will still average out between the two readings assuming they swing equally.

MediumRoastSteam

gobucks One thing I’m wondering is if it has anything to do with it being a 110v machine and/or being limited by the surge protector

Out of curiosity, why do you think the surge protector has a part to play in this? I’m assuming the surge protector is external to the machine and not something built into the machine?

gobucks

MediumRoastSteam my thinking was that it could be delivering less than 100% of the power from the outlet to the unit. It’s a 3 outlet smart plug (TPLink Kasa KP303), so I was thinking maybe it doesn’t deliver the whole outlet’s power to a single outlet. This seems less likely than the scenario that the outlet is is simply power limited, but it was something I thought of as a possible issue.

MediumRoastSteam

gobucks - understood. What about if you connect the machine directly to the power outlet without the TPLink plug? Do you experience the same?

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK depends whether the wiring in the machine can support simultaneous operation

My understanding is the Elizabeth does not support simultaneous operations.

drdre89

DavecUK Have a look on YouTube for the Whole Latte Love “Lelit Bianca vs Profitec Pro 700” video. Marc absolutely rips into Lelit for quality issues and why they don’t stock Lelit.

They had to turn comments Off on the video because I imagine they were getting alot of hate comments. 😄

As I said I want to love Lelit, as their machines have great features for a reasonable price… but I’m not convinced the quality is there up to the level of other machines. This is something they need to improve on.

For instance people were complaining about the Elizabeth OPV overshoot issue back from March 2021 and were complaining to their retailers about it. Yet Lelit haven’t done anything about it … is this the retailer’s fault for not reporting? .. or is this Lelits fault … who knows? … I kicked up a stink with my retailer about it in hoping that it will get reported back to Lelit in order to get the issue fixed. Just one example.

MediumRoastSteam

drdre89 Have a look on YouTube for the Whole Latte Love “Lelit Bianca vs Profitec Pro 700” video. Marc absolutely rips into Lelit for quality issues and why they don’t stock Lelit.

Have a look at the video from First Line. JavaJim absolutely rips into Profitec….

Just sayin’….

DavecUK

drdre89 The great thing is you have loads of good choices, so buy what you feel most comfortable with. 🙂

Grif

drdre89 Have a look on YouTube for the Whole Latte Love “Lelit Bianca vs Profitec Pro 700” video. Marc absolutely rips into Lelit for quality issues and why they don’t stock Lelit.

I remember seeing that and being apalled by it (I don’t own either manufacturer so have no skin in the game) WLL really showed themselve up with that, although JJ riposte was’nt much better.

I definitely agree that Lelit need to get their finger out though, having retailers blaming owners for defective parts is not a good look. If I’d had your experience with the liz I’d also be majorly p_____d off! Look forward to hearing what you think of the proX!👍

drdre89

MediumRoastSteam Yes the Java Jim video was a reply video to the Whole Latte Love video. Whole Latte Love released their Profitec vs Bianca vid on Aug 18 , Java Jim released his on Aug 28.

Good to see Java Jim standing up for Lelit. Nothing like a bit of healthy competition. As I said, Marc from Whole Latte Love had to turn comments Off on his video! There would of been alot of backlash from Lelit lovers

MediumRoastSteam

drdre89 - absolutely. However, Marc does talk a lot of nonsense overall. Almost like a clown actor. It’s just the way he speaks. Seems to me it’s all scripted, almost like a show, a really bad one. Not a fan of JavaJim either to be honest, but I think he does a lesser of a bad job.

Having owned a Profitec 700 and seen and used a Bianca before, I understand what they are saying. Bottomline to me… they have to sell a product. Praising the product they sell, and only highlight the good points of the product they sell and only highlight the not so good points, missing all the good points of the competition is a well know and really poor marketing technique.

Value of those videos: Zero.

dndrich

I have a USA Elizabeth, and I have been leaving it on for hours at a time. No issues with temperature creep at all. It is rock solid. I am not using a smart switch. I have my boiler at 198, and the steam boiler at stock temp, which I think is 275. I am using DaveC advanced settings. When I pull a shot, it takes a minute or so to get back to temp while I weigh and grind the next shot on my Niche. So the workflow is perfect. And I steam and pull at the same time too. So nice.

gobucks

dndrich Good to know. Today I ran the machine in several different settings, eco mode, lowered steam temp (135c instead of 145c), cycling the machine off after awhile, etc, and all these options produced more stable temps. I’m wondering if running the steam boiler at max (145c) on a 110v 15a outlet might be causing the occasional instability. TBH keeping the machine on standby and just powering it up as needed worked pretty well, it got up to temp pretty quickly from startup and between shots.

dndrich

I don’t see a need to run the steam boiler at max. At the default temperature it produces great steam for me. Perfect for lattes or cappuccino. I would consider lowering that in your case.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam absolutely. However, Marc does talk a lot of nonsense overall. Almost like a clown actor. It’s just the way he speaks. Seems to me it’s all scripted, almost like a show, a really bad one. Not a fan of JavaJim either to be honest, but I think he does a lesser of a bad job.

Giphy - GIF by South Park

gobucks

Yeah I did notice a fair amount of badmouthing of brands that various retailers don’t carry, hard to say whether it’s their honest opinion and that’s WHY they don’t carry the unit, or if they’re just saying it BECAUSE they don’t carry the unit. I will give a shoutout to the guy I talked to at Chris Coffee in upstate NY, I called him to ask about the differences between the Mara X and Elizabeth, he was extremely thorough and listened to my needs and ultimately recommended I go with the Elizabeth, even though they only sell the Mara X (FWIW the big selling points for me are the lack of an E61 for my baby girl to accidentally burn herself on, the rapid heat up time, and the controllable preinfusion).

DavecUK

I met Chris (and his daughters) in Italy around 3 years ago now….he seemed a very decent guy. He worked hard to build up his reputation and is quite passionate about doing it right. I got the impression he would rather the customer be happy and get the right thing, even if that means buying from someone else. In reality, his position as one of the largest coffee equipments retailers allows him to do that.

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