I saw this picture posted on their Instagram account so presume it is ok to post here. I am not sure what it shows as the hold up was supposed to be cast groups, but from the blurb it does sound promising! I wonder what the eventual price point will be. I must say the renders that found their way out did look enticing! [URL=https://i.imgur.com/VjIJQ2f.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/VjIJQ2f.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/ak5AeE1.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ak5AeE1.png[/IMG][/URL]

Last year, the announced expected price was 1000 GBP (probably + VAT).

@"pjw"#p6893 Well, allowing for things to have changed slightly in the pandemic, I would have thought a price around the £1400 to £1500 would be quite acceptable, although of course, the lower the better!

Argos is still being offered at 850 USD. Vectis can and will be more expensive, but probably not that much. 1500 GBP will too close to L Compressa. But we will see.

id say rightly so as the argos needs to be good value as its stand alone and a new company, the pandemic may have priced the vectus out the market, due to where it will sit, you'd have to be a lever nut or ££££ to buy it over something like a bianca

> @"Cuprajake"#p6902 you’d have to be a lever nut This is the target audience :)

> @"Cuprajake"#p6902 the pandemic may have priced the vectus out the market, due to where it will sit, you’d have to be a lever nut or ££££ to buy it over something like a bianca David may not be right, I remember a quoted price for it being £1,000…On HB Reiss was quoted as saying it was/would be more temperature stable than a Cremina and talked about simplicity. Perhaps he is aiming for the potential Cremina market? If he is, I think that's a tough nut to crack. I do agree that you would have to be a lever nut, or really, really want one.

Another nugget of information released by Londinium on this machine: https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/news/3442/vectis It reads: > At last, a small 58mm spring lever group. Direct fill, no pump, dipper fed, steam wand. 20cm wide, 30cm deep That’s roughly the size of the Elizabeth, transposed, slightly smaller. It’s a dipper though. I’d love to know what’s the trick on temp management. Looks interesting though, and certainly something I’ll be eyeing out as my next machine, providing it can be demonstrated it delivers.

> @"dfk41"#p6878 I am not sure what it shows as the hold up was supposed to be cast groups It seems to be the top of the group, where the lever pivots > @"DavecUK"#p6927 I do agree that you would have to be a lever nut, or really, really want one. Aren't these effectively the same thing? (Semi-serious question - given the competition and the possible price point)

I wonder what the price point will be, esp with the current climate

@"Cuprajake"#p23428 The price point is largely irrelevant until they are available Jake. All we have heard to date is promises and broken time tables all laced with the usual sprinklings of fairy dust. The Evo went from an idea we chatted about to production in 10 months, so what makes the little diddly so different. Personally, I would be surprised to see it surface anytime soon with the Argos looming, but what do I know.

Londinium Vectis

dfk41

Am I right in my thinking, that if at this stage the little diddly needs substantial further development costs, which after all, a re-design of the chassis and probable front panel strengthening are examples of, then this will push up both the cost and the timescale for delivery. I guess that in the ensuing delay, it will give the machine the chance for thorough testing so that it at least will be more temperature stable then the Cremina. Olympus must be seriously concerned by the eventual arrival of the Made in Birmingham Vectis

tompoland

dfk41 Olympus must be seriously concerned by the eventual arrival of the Made in Birmingham Vectis

I doubt that Olympia are too concerned. More small levers such as Strietman and Odyssey and Vectis grow the market and each have there different appeal. Pretty hard to beat Olympia quality and durability. And it’s a big market and room for more competitors too.

That said, if Olympia offered better temperature stability, it certainly would help their sales I’m sure.

CoyoteOldMan

LMSC No weak spring, IMO. Wouldn’t X times the current back weight on the Evo help?

Well… the compressive force at the spring is dictated by the size of the portafilter and the desired maximum pressure. Assuming a 49 mm portafilter and a 6 bar max pressure (like the Cremina, I think), the spring needs about 115 kg of force.

The layout - from the only Vectis photo (rendering?) I could find - is similar to the Argos, with the boiler and the group set as far back as possible from the front feet. That means in theory the momentum applied to the lever is just ahead of the Centre of Mass (CoM), so its effect will be small and counterbalanced easily, unlike in the Evo that has a very ‘forward’ group. The bigger risk, I think, is ‘sideways toppling’ if the weight is all at the back and the machine is relatively narrow.

Cuprajake

CoyoteOldMan 58mm and 9bar spring is what is being used, what I read on Instagram.

DavecUK

Cuprajake 58mm and 9bar spring is what is being used, what I read on Instagram.

They said that about the larger models, but the only independent YouTube vids I’ve seen show around 7.5 bar that drops much lower really quickly. So I treat claims from that camp with a large chunk of salt….

CoyoteOldMan

Cuprajake 58mm and 9bar spring is what is being used

Which would mean more than double the force (237 kg) and significantly more stability risk… counterweight or no counterweight. Sideways momentum is the issue; the force at the lever is not that big - 12-15 kg, but if there are a 35 cm lever and a 10 cm half-base, relative momenta are multiplied by 3.5… on a 15-20 kg machine it doesn’t take much of an ‘off center pull’ to topple it. Just a case of being careful.

LMSC

I don’t want to turn this into a non-Vectis discussion.

But, any future machine should have the 55 mm or the 58 mm as standard with at least 9 bars, if not 10.5/11 like Evo.

It’s also hard to beat the temp stability the 3 PIDs bring.

Cuprajake

Reiss did publish a vid of the lever going to 9bars

but its all on instagram not on youtube so it makes it hard to share,

from the vids that have been shared imo its still a ways off, its good he now has a working model so can troubleshoot and report back, but at this time i feel his xmas/jan shipping is a little optimistic.

LMSC theres something with the evo smaller group/thicker puck/higher pressure that just works, but we cant compare these two machines - totally different market,

Platypus

How would an L1 compare to a Vectis in terms of medium/light roasts . I understand the benefits of the Vectis being a smaller footprint and it being a “dipper”? but in terms of cup quality would you get more from an L1 as you can now pick them up for a similar price to what the Vectis may (or may not) be. If the L1 struggles more with lighter roasts, longer pre infusions would you expect the Vectis to be more capable?

DavecUK

Platypus but in terms of cup quality would you get more from an L1 as you can now pick them up for a similar price to what the Vectis may (or may not) be. If the L1 struggles more with lighter roasts, longer pre infusions would you expect the Vectis to be more capable?

The L1 was originally meant to be good for darker roasts, then lighter roasts as well when they became fashionable….I don’t understand it personally. Perhaps it’s my technical failings? I don’t really understand for the LR24 controls temperature by preinfusion pressure either…I guess I need to brush up more on my basic physics. I have been doing a lot more atomic physics lately (for fun), as it’s my idea of good video watching.

I would expect the Vectis to be equally random, or baffling in terms of temperature stability and control.

Call me old fashioned, but I feel you can’t beat a PID, with temperature control and actively heated PID group. Decoupling brewing and steaming completely, with the ability to micro manage temperatures in all 3. Even if the temperature displayed isn’t exactly what is measures, it’s stable and can reliably be bumped up or down in increments to suit taste. I can’t see a better way of dealing with light roasts, dark roasts and anything that excels at a particular temp. With an Evo it becomes feasible to put a grind size and temperature to each different coffee and switch those parameters on the fly waiting a few minutes for the group to stabilise.

Cuprajake

with the l1 you were limited to how long you pre infused due to thermo syphon stall, i think its was under 20 seconds, but im going back,

the l1 mine was set at 1.2bar boiler which was the infusion pressure, what temp this was at the puck i dont know, i didnt do very well with light stuff on my l1 and mainly pulled risotto

CoyoteOldMan

Cuprajake mainly pulled risotto

Like this one? 😁

Cuprajake

Giphy - Reel Them In Gone Fishin GIF by Football Australia

Tjyven

Just think Reiss tested a spring that was 9 bar but he also said he wasnt sure if it was a good idea to choose a spring that strong.

DavecUK

Tjyven It’s already got the jellywobbles, so 9 bar won’t help at all.

Perhaps when he has finished “ridgidising” the machine…

tompoland

Is it just me or is there some smoke and mirror mystique around the Londinium brand generally?

That’s the impression I get from various forums I.e. that there is not a lot that is special or unique. Emporer’s clothes. Old technology. That sort of thing.

I’m not stating this as a fact, more interested to hear from you if you have one and love it as to why.

Or if you had one and weren’t so enamored as to why.

dfk41

tompoland Tom, everyone knows me as a basher of Londiddly, but that is not true. I do have a history with them, going back to the very first machines being released, buying an L1 Luxe (glass panels) in January/February 2013.
The marketing strategy was always based on big claims that were always unjustified. I believe there was 3 or 4 prototype machines that were sent out for testing but the order book was open and production started before any real evaluations took place. This meant that any problems were dealt with on the fly which in turn led to bitter arguments between the various factions.
After a short period of time, Londiddly realised that the were excluding the largest part of the market from buying because the L1 whilst making a good job with medium/plus beans was hopeless with the lighter stuff. This then led to the LR and in turn the LR24.
In the early days, Londiddly wrote a blog nearly every day extolling the machines. This was built up to fever pitch by the various influencers they use but the one thing they could never do was back up their claims. “The Londinium lever machine is the most temperature stable lever machine in the world”. OK we said, please prove it.
The marketing for the Vectis has been done in exactly the same way. It started on the forums in October 2017 by announcing the project and asking CFUK members to register interest! Before there was anything more than a render, we were being told that “the Vectis is more temperature stable than the Cremina”! OK, how do you know please since it is a render.
Then what happened? We were dealt every excuse under the sun as to why production had not started. The bare truth, is Londiddlies are built by Fracino in Birmingham. Fracino are a reasonable sized operation having a large export market and their production lines have to allocate time and resources. I guess the question, "how many units do you expect to sell in the first year’ is a difficult one to answer. There could not be a worse time to bring something to the market with increased costs, global economic problems etc. This has to impact on price. Out of desperation, they release a video on Instagram of the first prototype and the fan boys all bang their drums. On closer inspection, the video revealed several major problems which sent it back to someones drawing board meaning more delays.
Whether or not the Vectis is more temperature stable than a Cremina is still up for debate. Can the Vectis really offer the same branding and build quality as a Cremina? Surely the Londinium range is just a Fracino machine with a Londinium sticker slapped on before the boxes are shifted.
Let us hope that some semblance of order can be restored in 2023 and the machine comes to the market, then the public can decid just how good it is

drH

I’ve never used a Londinium but always thought the LR is an exciting machine. Until recently I think it may have been the only easily available commercial style lever group that has stable temperature (bc of the thermosiphon) and the ability to adjust pre infusion pressure while running on a reservoir.

Now that there are new machines like the ACS Evo leva and the Nurri leva, I think the Londinium is now distinct in being the simplest of the advanced levers: No modifications to the lever group to add complexity (and functionality, like Nurri) and no computer screens or displays (like ACS).

Cuprajake

If you want to adjust pressures on the LR you need to use an app to do so.

But most people I know who have them leave them set about 3 bars.

I think the biggest bugbear people have is that they are just told the temp is stable. There’s nothing to back it up you just have to believe.

The second Biggie for me is the forum is closed, you have to be an owner to join, and even when you are like I was you can still be banned, if the owner doesn’t want you on there because you had a negative experience.

With what yoi just wrote it shows the power of marketing, and you’re not the first to say the same, ive seen the same said on Hb, again by non users and owners.

Once you start looking there’s very little data and alot of hype around the machines.

tompoland

Very interesting tx for taking the time to explain

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