I am surprised this has not come up here before, as coffee and home brewing seem like parallel hobbies that would attract a similar sort of crowd. Personally, my coffee and beer journeys have a lot of similarities. I got into both over 30 years ago, but did both on a very amateurish level for a long time without evolving much. In the past few years I got more interested in both. I upped my game a level or two – still very basic but significantly improved, and very happy with the results I am getting. I currently have \~120 bottles (6 crates) of 6 or 7 different brews in the garage, so there is always something to drink. For a long time I only made the simplest pre-hopped liquid malt kits. I then moved to non-hopped dry extract recipes, adding my own hops. This is a more hands-on approach (though hardly more difficult) that gives better understanding of the contribution of the different ingredients to the final beer. I then discovered I was a hop-head and aroma freak, so added dry hopping and found that I love what it does to the beer – I will not dream of doing a batch without it now. I am still a very low-level amateur. I have not made the move to the all-grain Brew-In-A-Bag method, but who is to say I won’t do it at some point in the future? Currently I am mostly after hoppy pale ales, light in colour, big on hop flavour and aromas, not heavy on the alcohol (4-5%). Citra, mosaic, cascade, Galaxy, Nelson Sauvin, Amarillo (and a few others) are some of the hops I used recently. Comparing espresso to home brewing, I find that: * It is easier and faster to get good results with beer than it is with espresso (contrary to what it may seem if you hadn’t tried either 😊) * Much cheaper to get into beer than into espresso. A basic beer brewing kit (which is what I use) can be had for around £100, maybe slightly more including ingredients for the first batch of \~40 pints (don’t quote me on that – I haven’t checked recently, but the point is that there is no need for a lot of kit to get started, and it isn’t expensive compared to espresso). * It is easier to find good beer outside than it is to find good espresso (but one can quite easily make ace beer at home, much easier than getting to great espresso at home IMO). If you are already home-brewing – What do you do? What do you like? How have you evolved? What have I said that is completely wrong? If you have never tried home-brewing – what are you waiting for?

@"Doram"#54, I definitely fit the camp of enjoying some home brewing. I did it first as a student, with a plastic bucket and malt extract kits. A few years later I upgraded to a Cornelius keg system (washing bottles is a pain). Later on I decided to go whole grain and set myself up for BIAB (brew in a bag) with a large pot and gas burner. This was my setup for many years until the first lock down. As some of you who’ve read any of my other posts might have gathered I like building things. I therefore decided to upgrade my system from gas to electricity, so that I can brew indoors. I built a controller based on the https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/, but for BIAB. I then modded my pot by fitting an element, temperature control and recirculation. I also built a counter flow chiller. I still do BIAB, but it’s much easier as I can set everything up in the utility room, and the PID controller and alarm means I can automate a fair bit. This is what my setup looks like now:[upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/FBmYhbu.jpeg] Plus I added taps to the spare fridge in the utility room so I have a kegerator: [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/pyWArMA.jpeg] I need to brew again, but am waiting for raspberries to come into season as I want to try a raspberry sour.

@"hornbyben"#p11971 > @"hornbyben"#p11971 I built a controller based on the , but for BIAB. I then modded my pot by fitting an element, temperature control and recirculation. I also built a counter flow chiller. I still do BIAB, but it’s much easier as I can set everything up in the utility room, and the PID controller and alarm means I can automate a fair bit. > > This is what my setup looks like now: Looks fantastic, way out of my league! Makes me feel very humble with my plastic bucket setup, lol: [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/Z0DopuV.jpeg]

@"Doram"#p11973 there’s nothing wrong with a plastic bucket. These days you can make some great beers that way. One of my friends does mini mash, where you use malt extract for the bulk of your fermentables but do a small steep for the specialty grains and boil for the hops in a pan on the stove. This gives the recipe freedom of all grain but is a bit quicker and easier. If my explanation isn’t very clear. Here’s the equipment you’d need: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/mini-mash-starter-kit/ and here’s an overview of the steps: https://youtu.be/IQb0iQDwwoc I’m envious of your bottle collection. I always like the idea of a good stock of bottles, but was always too lazy to do that much cleaning. Kegs are quicker and easier, but you drink until it’s gone. I do like having CO2 though, as I’ve also set up one tap for sparkling water, which my wife and I enjoy. We try to reduce our waste, and carbonating tap water saves on a lot of plastic bottles vs buying it.

Really awesome to see your setups! It’s a journey I embarked on briefly and have been meaning to get into. I got a all-grain recipe kit that involved two big saucepans on the hob, a large sieve and a demijohn which was dry-hopped and then siphoned into 12 bottles. The end product was actually better than I’d expected but it was such a faff with all the equipment that I’ve not tried again. I’m keen to get into it, and I’ve seen some great YouTube videos but I still find the list of kit I need and the start-to-finish process a bit of a mystery. I’d love to buy a good quality kit of everything I need to make hoppy, hazy beers, but I don’t know what that is!

@"Ernie1"#p12002 the brew in a bag method is probably the easiest. This works as follows: - get a big pot (for a 40 pint batch you probably need 50L pot), fill with water and heat to mash temperature (usually about 60-70⁰C). - There are calculators on line to help you work out how much water you need to add, but I'm this method you're saying everything, including what you lose to boil off. - add a bag (you can buy or make from a net curtain), pour your milled grain in and stir - wait for the mash time (typically 30-60 minutes) - you might want to sit occasionally and heat a bit to keep the temperature in the right place. - pull out the bag to remove the grain - typically you don't rinse the grain. This wastes a bit of sugar, but you can just compensate by adding more to start. Grain is cheap. - bring to boil and boil for 30-60 mins depending on the recipe - you add your hops during this stage - cool - this can be with a chiller, or you can seal in a 25L Jerry can and let it cool overnight - put in fermenter, add yeast and wait - transfer to bottles or keg Everything before the boil needs to be clean and everything after the boil needs to be sterilised. If your decide to get started I would go for something like a porter first as they hide a lot of mistakes. Very hazy West coast IPA type styles are more susceptible to oxidation and probably best saved for when you're a bit more experienced.

> @"hornbyben"#p11995 [Doram](https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/549/3) there’s nothing wrong with a plastic bucket. I posted the picture, so obviously I am not ashamed enough. ;- > @"hornbyben"#p11995 One of my friends does mini mash, where you use malt extract for the bulk of your fermentables but do a small steep for the specialty grains and boil for the hops in a pan on the stove. This gives the recipe freedom of all grain but is a bit quicker and easier. This (mini-mash in a cloth bag) is exactly what I do! My method is very similar to what is seen in your video, only I used dried malt extract and boil it with the hops. It saved having to do a full boil (bigger pot) and the time it takes to do a full mash, so brew day can be completed faster - it probably takes me 2-3 hours from start to finish, including sanitising before and putting things away after. Full grain obviously gives more options and control, and the ingredients are cheaper, but also more opportunity to get things wrong. There is some debate if it gives better results or not. I suppose it depends on how well you do it. > @"hornbyben"#p11995 I’m envious of your bottle collection. I always like the idea of a good stock of bottles, but was always too lazy to do that much cleaning. Kegs are quicker and easier, but you drink until it’s gone. As with everything, there are advantages and disadvantages. My method with bottles is simple and easy for me, because I am used to it. As soon as I drink a bottle, I rinse it with water and store it up-side-down in a crate, so it stays relatively clean and doesn't pick up nasties from the air. On bottling day, I sanitise the equipment in a second bucket, so end up having half a bucket full of no-rinse sanitiser. All I do is dip the bottles in the sanitiser to fill them up, then shake out the sanitiser and put back, up-side-down again, in the crate ready for bottling. This gives me clean and sanitised bottles, and I never had a problem with contamination. Many of my bottles I collected from beer I bought, but at one point I wanted some more so emailed a local small brewery and asked if I could buy some bottles. Beer people tend to be very nice, so they said yes. Had a really nice chat and walked out with some very nice beer and a few dozens of new un-labelled bottles. Beer keeps really well - I have some bottles I probably made 3 years ago, maybe more, and they are alive and well - improving like fine wine.

> @"Ernie1"#p12002 I’m keen to get into it, and I’ve seen some great YouTube videos but I still find the list of kit I need and the start-to-finish process a bit of a mystery. > > I’d love to buy a good quality kit of everything I need to make hoppy, hazy beers, but I don’t know what that is! Like coffee, home brewing can be as simple or as complicated as you choose. People used to do it 5,000 years ago, and I think the internet wasn't that big back then. If you found it too much faff and want to keep things simple - maybe take a shortcut and use malt extract? All you are missing is that you let professionals (with professional equipment) extract the sugar from the grain. In return you get to need less equipment, do a partial boil (smaller pot) and the process is shorter (maybe we can liken extract brewing to buying roasted coffee, and all grain to roasting yourself?). You keep most of the fun bits and can get really nice results with very little kit.

Thanks everyone that’s a huge help. I’m definitely keen to try all grain again, and I’m happy to invest a bit in some equipment that will serve me well! I have no intentions of scaling past 12 or 24 bottles so just things like stable heating/cooling/bottling are factors in what equipment I’d like to buy. I think the faff before was mainly that I was trying to make do with household items (the kit said large pasta pans…) and a sieve and it was just a big mess. Also the siphoning into bottles wasn’t much fun compared to some kind of tapped container. Have you guys played with water treatments? I sometimes read about how the hazier New England style beers have something added to the water.

Water treatment is very important from what my brewing friends have said. Styles like a London porter are suited to brewing with harder water than a Scottish ale. Breweries are quite secretive about how they treat their water for each brew, one of the few things that brewers can be cagey over. The water treatment is similar to water for coffee but with more of a range for hardness and alkalinity

> @"Ernie1"#p12020 I have no intentions of scaling past 12 or 24 bottles so just things like stable heating/cooling/bottling are factors in what equipment I’d like to buy. When you say "bottles", do you mean pint/\~500ml bottles? If so, personally I think you have the faff built in to that small quantity, especially if you are making 6 litre batches. Beer takes time. You start a batch, and you will only get to drink it in a few weeks (minimum). Cleaning, sanitising, brewing will take the same time for a 6 litre or a 5 gallon (20-23 litre) batch. For me, it makes more sense to use the small pot you already have to make a 5 gallon extract batch than to make a 6 litre all-grain batch. Personally I usually do 2 X 5 gallon batches back to back. This gives me \~80 bottles (40 litres) of beer which lasts me for a long time. If I was limited to 6 litre batches I would need to brew all the time and it would hardly be worth the effort in my opinion. My method has no syphoning and no faff (I think). I use an 8-10 litre pot to boil \~6 litres of water. If I do a mini-mash, I steep grains in at about 65C for 30-60 mins. I then do hop additions to the pot as the recipe calls. When done - the pot goes into the sink with cold water and maybe some ice to cool (it's a small quantity, so I don't need any cooling device). I strain that wort to a plastic bucket fermenter, top up with water, add the yeast and let it ferment. I don't have any temp control for fermenting (maybe in the future). Instead I just do it in moderate seasons when the temp in the house is about right (18-20C). Once fermentation is done, I put in some hop pellets in a hop bag for dry hopping. To bottle, I put the fermenter on the kitchen counter, connect a hose to the tap, put a second bucket (which also has a tap) on the floor and move the beer from the fermenter to the second bucket, leaving the sediment behind in the fermenter. I add carbonating sugar, put the second bucket on the counter and use a bottling stick to bottle (a simple pin at the bottom of the stick opens when pushed against with the bottom of the bottle, which is very convenient). Crown caps and a simple capper to finish off and that's it. > @"Ernie1"#p12020 Have you guys played with water treatments? Not really. I use tap water. I add a campden tablet because I have it, but I don't know if it's necessary. It is meant to get rid of chlorine, but I don't smell/taste chlorine in my tap water. I sometimes use 5 litres of Ashbeck to reduce minerals a little, but to be honest - I don't know if it's improving anything. This is another something that I may be looking at in the future, but have neglected for a long time.

Any home brewers in the house?

JahLaza

hornbyben well done, you’ve basically described the whole brewing process with pictures for anyone who wants to learn! I like your set up, interested the hear the results

Ernie1

@hornbyben

Amazing write-up thanks, really helpful. Impressive setup too.

hornbyben

@JahLaza and @Ernie1, I’m glad you found it interesting. I’ll post some pics of adding the raspberries and the final result.

I’m really pleased with my setup now. It’s been many years in the making. The control panel is totally over built, and is basically industrial quality. It was a fun project though, and it should last for ever as I can easily replace any parts if they fail. Electric brewing is definitely easier to fit in with the family than running out to a gas burner in the garden.

Ernie1

hornbyben

The control panel is fantastic, if you don’t mind me asking do you have a background or hobbyist experience in electronics at all? It looks incredibly well finished.

Just trying to weigh up if it’s the kind of thing Joe average could do.

Doram

hornbyben I’m really pleased with my setup now. It’s been many years in the making.

hornbyben - Your setup is very impressive indeed! Presuming you started simple, I am curious to hear your experience of the improvements in the final beer you got with the upgrades you made (if that is at all possible).

I am still on the most simple setup: a pot, two plastic buckets with taps (one as fermenter and the other for priming sugar and bottling) and basically that’s it - total cost is probably less than £100). I use dried malt extract with partial mash, I have no temp control for fermentation (just limit myself to the time of year when temps are about right), no chiller (just plonk the pot in a sink with cold water), no system to minimise oxidation after fermentation (just accept there will be some oxidation until I get the beer to the bottles).

So I am wondering: have you started similar to me and progressed, or did you start with a better setup? If you started simple, can you describe what improvements (in taste) you got from the different upgrades?

hornbyben

Ernie1 Training wise I’m a polymer chemist, so I don’t have a background in electronics, but I do have an aptitude for science and am very practical.

While I’m no electronics wiz, I can follow and understand a circuit diagrams. I’ve always found that as long as you have good attention to detail and take your time you can work it out. Skills wise building a panel like this is just cutting some holes and screwing the wires in. The challenge is not getting confused and making sure you put the correct wires in the correct place. I followed the very good instructions here: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/building-your-brewery, but modified them a bit as I only wanted to control one element and one pump, plus I didn’t feel the need for an amp/volt meter or timer. I wanted to make it as compact as possible as most of the time this all lives in a cupboard in the garage.

As I used industrial components it did end up costing my _£300, and I already had the PID controller kicking around in the loft as work were binning it a few years ago.

Unless you enjoy this sort of project, if you’re starting out it’s probably easier to just buy a pre made system such as a grainfather or brewzilla

Ernie1

hornbyben great, thanks for clarifying. Definitely looks like a proper job.

I’m not averse to having a go, I’ve not done anything like this but a fair bit of motorcycle wiring and basic guitar pedal circuits so I’m comfortable with soldering and components.

I think you’re right though that at this point in my homebrew journey (one brew in…) it would be wise to just stick with ready made equipment.

hornbyben

Ernie1 if you comfortable wiring a motorbike you’ll be fine.

Don’t let me put you off though. If you think home brewing is something you’ll do for many years this approach is pretty cost effective as it should last for life.

hornbyben

Doram no problem. Below is my journey

First setup: plastic bucket, bottles, beer kits
- I mostly did ales, so these are pretty forgiving taste wise. I was happy with the beer I made, but there was sometimes a homebrew twang. It wasn’t offensive but the beer definitely wasn’t pub quality.
- I was a student at the time, so money was short, time was plentiful and standards weren’t that high.
Upgrade 1: addition of a plastic keg
- I found sterilising bottles, priming and capping too much hassle, so I upgraded to a cheapie h plastic keg.
- This worked ok, and given my beer quality I think it was fine. It didn’t keep light out though so I’m not sure it would have been great with very hoppy beers, but they weren’t as popular back then (this was 2005).
Upgrade 2: move to all grain
- we’re now about 10 years later as I lived overseas for a few years, and I decided to move to all grain. I went with the BIAB technique using a 50L stainless steel pot and large gas burner. For cooling I used the No-chill approach of putting it in a 25L water can and letting it cool overnight.
- this significantly improved the quality of the beer. I was now making pub quality beer.
- I had to brew outside, but I didn’t have children at this stage so it wasn’t too much of a hassle.
Upgrade 3: move to stainless steel corny kegs and force carbonation
- my plastic keg cracked so I decided to replace it with a stainless steel corny keg setup. These are even easier to clean, block all light out and let you have draft taps (which is cool).
- Improvement was better shelf stability (I’ve never had a beer go off, although hop aroma does decrease over time), long life as they should last forever, and reduced risk as when plastic gets scratched it can contaminate your beer (never had this happen but it can)
Upgrade 4: kegerator
- we fitted a new kitchen and didn’t need the fridge part of the fridge freezer in the utility room, so I plumbed gas in and added taps to the front. It’s nice to be able to keep and serve the beer cold.
Upgrade 5: stainless steel fermenter
- No flavour impact, but should last for ever, less risk as easier to sanitise, easier to heat (I had an old heating belt and temperature controller kicking around from another project).
- This was during Covid, so I wasn’t spending money on anything else and it was really a treat.
Upgrade 6: electric brewery
- I built the control panel, added an element to my pot and built the chiller.
- Flavour wise it’s no different. I have more control of temperature, which will impact taste, but as I tend to brew different beers each time I can’t say by how much.
- I now have two kids, so time is more important and being able to do it inside, pop in and out, hold temperature and not have naked flames is a major plus for convenience.
- the chiller should have a flavour impact on very light beers, but mostly it just lets me get it into the fermenter quicker.
- routing CO2 through the keg should reduce oxygenation, but again this is mostly insurance and not eating CO2.

Overall I’d summarise it as the move to all grain is the only major flavour impact (and partly I think this is because all the water is boiled). Making everything stainless steel reduces risk of contamination, and the kegs and electric brewery are more convenient. You can make very good beers with mini mash though, you just have less choice over base malts.

The other improve the is no rinse cleaner (peroxy based) and no rinse steriliser (star san), so that things don’t taste of chlorine.

Doram

hornbyben Doram no problem. Below is my journey

Thank you so much hornbyben for taking the time to describe your fascinating journey!

While reading I was thinking of my next question, but I think you already answered it at the end of your post. The question was going to be what would be your recommendation for the first upgrade from the simplest setup considering the ratio between investment (effort/money) and the impact on beer quality. Am I right to assume the answer is to move to all grain BIAB?

I almost got to this conclusion recently, but then I read some mixed opinions about all-grain vs. extract. Some people said all-grain makes a better beer, but others said it just gives you more choice and control, but extract beer quality is just the same as all-grain (and some even claimed extracts make even better beers, because the mashing is done professionally so there is less an amateur can mess up. I thought that maybe it’s like using roasted coffee vs. getting green beans and roasting them yourself?). So that put me off a little for now, because I don’t feel I need more choice and more control (there is already too much choice, lol). All I am interested in is if I can make the beer taste (and smell) even better.

hornbyben

Doram number 1 is good sanitation. If you’re not already using peroxy based cleaner and Star San I be would do that first.

Is there anything that you don’t like or think needs improving?

Regarding all grain vs extract, it used to be clear when extract was overcooked stuff in a can, but these days there is a lot of choice of good quality extract. I suspect extract is just as good. All grain offers more choice and grain is cheaper, although given the equipment price probably isn’t a reason to choose one over the other.

If you do go all grain I would definitely recommend single vessel brewing (either Biab or one of the modern systems such as brewzilla). Three vessel offers minimal benefit for the home scale and is just more equipment to buy and store. Don’t worry about efficiency differences, grain is cheap so for home brew consistency is more important than efficiency.

They say brewers produce wort and yeast produces beer. Based on this I suspect the thing that would actually make the most difference is a temperature controlled fermenter. If you have the space this can easily be done with an old fridge, an inkbird controller and a heater bar. Or you can get more expensive off the shelf options. The other approach is to use kveik yeast which ferments hot (35⁰C), then you can just use a heating belt and controller as room temperature in the UK is nearly always less than this.

Doram

hornbyben Doram number 1 is good sanitation. If you’re not already using peroxy based cleaner and Star San I be would do that first.

This I have been doing for many years now. Used to use Starsan, and moved to Chemsan when the first became unavailable in the UK (and I understand is the same thing) - never had contamination so all good on this front.

hornbyben Is there anything that you don’t like or think needs improving?

Not really to be honest. I like what I get. If there is anything I want more I think it’s more hop aroma. The beers I like most are the ones that are have intoxicating nose even before I take a first sip. One thing I noticed you said is that light isn’t good for hoppy beers. My buckets are white plastic so don’t block the light. Bottles are mostly brown and kept in a closed garage. I am not sure if and how much this impacts aroma. I might need to use more for dry hopping (usually use about 50 grams per ~20 litre batch) or maybe try different hops (I am still experimenting, but tried Citra which were very nice, Cascade and Mosaic, which were also good). I am happy with the results, but I guess the best beers I had in pubs had more aroma than my homebrew, and if I could easily get more I would like that.

All grain - I would consider doing this if I was convinced that it would produce significant improvement in taste. But if it’s just to have more choice - I feel I am very far away from being bored of the choice I have with extracts. I also don’t drink enough to justify the move for the cheaper cost of ingredients.

Temp control - I was thinking of a fridge/inkbird solution, and might go for it in the future, but for the amount of brewing I do (usually around two batches a year), for now I just do it when the temperature is moderate (around 18-22C). Again, I am happy with the result I get, and not sure if and how much the ability to control the temperature to a single degree would translate to beer quality.

So for now, I am just sitting on the fence, enjoying what I have and not making any changes. But when I get the bug for an upgrade again - I still haven’t decided what is the best thing to try. :)

hornbyben

Doram Based on your comments it sounds like you’re in a pretty good place. If I was to recommend a next step I’d consider adding a keg and CO2 supply. This helps with shelf life, and should preserve hop aroma for longer.

The usual is a corny keg, but if you wanted something more versatile you could go for a kegland kegmenter. You could serve from this, or use it as a fermenter or even pressure fermenter.

Doram

hornbyben If I was to recommend a next step I’d consider adding a keg and CO2 supply. This helps with shelf life, and should preserve hop aroma for longer.

I think a keg is not for me. I like bottles. I don’t drink fast enough to justify a keg, and I like having a few different beers at the same time, which bottles make easy. So I think for now I am a bit stuck, but that’s not a problem because I am generally very happy with where I am. :)

hornbyben

Doram doesn’t sounds like your stuck at all. It sounds like you’re exactly where you should be. Hitting the sweet spot of effort/cost versus the value you get out of it.

No point spending more and upgrading just for the sake of it. It’s a slippery slope and often doesn’t actually bring you more enjoyment.

hornbyben

Next stage of the fermentation for my raspberry sour.

Rack the beer into a secondary fermenter to separate the beer from the yeast:

I prefer to use my stainless steel fermenter, so I gave it a clean, sterilised it and transferred the beer back. Obviously for each transfer everything was sterilised and the pipes went to the bottom so there was no splashing. I then added 1.4kg of raspberries, which I put into sterilised bags (aka hop socks).

The beer is setup again with an airlock, and I’ll leave it for 7 days before kegging, with a couple of squeezes of the raspberry bags in this time. I didn’t bother routing the gas through the keg this time as the main fermentation flushed it. It will now just sit ready and waiting to receive the beer when the fermentation is finished.

I had a taste and it was very pleasant. Quite clean with an acidic tang, very refreshing.

DavecUK

hornbyben Do you do all this in the Utility room?

hornbyben

DavecUK I do indeed, although it’s a decent size utility room

hornbyben

Gave the raspberries a squeeze. Looks like a murder scene, but taste wise I’m very pleased. Very clean with notable raspberry flavour and a tart hit from the lactic acid the yeast produces. Gravity is at 1.010, and I was expecting 1.008, so A few more days and it’ll be ready to keg.

LMSC

hornbyben Have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. This is not only a great read, but also a pro set up. How many litres does this get you, if I have missed it?

Is there anything you can’t do ? 😂

Well done mate!

hornbyben

LMSC glad you’re enjoying it.

I like to brew one keg at a time, which is 19L (33 pints) so that’s what I sized everything to. I try not to drink excessively (i.e no more than a couple of drinks fri, sat, sun and no midweek drinking), and also like wine and whiskey, so this usually lasts me a while.

There’s plenty I can’t do (sports for example), but I don’t share that online 🤣

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