@"DavecUK"#p12737 Thanks Dave.. interesting because it occurrs to me the Vesuvius plus a bluetooth connection and the right programming would be the perfect synthesis of build quality (ECM) innovation (Decent) all wrapped in a traditional E61 style body. Can you convince @"Paolo_Cortese"#90 to update it? I love mine, which I bought second hand largely on the basis of your reviews; its taken me a year but I think I've finally got the hang of it!

@"Grahamsphillips"#p13074 I'd put an order in for one of those!

> @"Grahamsphillips"#p13074 Can you convince [@Paolo_Cortese](https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/u/Paolo_Cortese) to update it? It would mean losing that lovely old, but proven super reliable main board…..

hi, could some one with a vesuvius with the wood/metal handle please email off my sig

I have a wooden handled bottomless pf (generic) that I bought for my Elizabeth then a barista pro IMS basket in it. Will this IMS basket fit the supplied bottomless pf that comes with the Vesuvius?

So, my Vesuvius arrived today. I didn’t want to start another thread and this looked like the most appropriate place to discuss my first day! It left Italy last Friday and arrived in my house today - 6 days, yipee! Mine was definitely used, the plastic was gone from it, there was dirt here and there, spilled water underneath the water tank and for some reason the pipes going onto the tank had a black residue of some sort on parts of them. The panel on top of the machine, where the cup test sits is pretty badly finished with dirty plastic covering it but doesn’t bother me. I didn’t pay for a brand new machine I guess!! Assembling was easy as the provided guide is comprehensive (remember the first thing you do is unscrew the four screws on the top of the side panels, no hammer or anything required) The Teflon furniture gliders I pre purchased are perfect for moving it around on the counter top. A bag of felt pads come with the machine. I put 1L through the group 200ml at a time with at least 15 seconds in between. I then emptied the service boiler twice as per manual. I noticed the shower screen had coffee on it so I soaked that in puly caff and gave a good wash. At this stage I only had time to pull 4 shots as I had to leave! I was close to dialled in by the fourth albeit a bit long but I took it with me in the car- I have to say it was very very nice. So I look forward to playing with it tomorrow. I thought I had a dodgy touch screen as it didn’t seem to respond some times but apparently there are different delay times for different choices on it.. phew..! Looks a stunning machine on the counter and I love the almost totally silent pump. I thought the water reservoir wasn’t the best design but I think I’ll get used to it and won’t have to be refilling it so often when I’m not flushing the system through and just using it to make coffee! It really is a different operation to the Elizabeth but I don’t think it will take long to get used to it. So, I can’t wait to drink coffee from it tomorrow

[upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/cumOEwk.jpeg] I use this type of oil can to fill any of my machines with water.

@"DavecUK"#p13617 I ordered this one by someone’s recommendation on here: https://www.toolstation.com/laser-plastic-measuring-jug/p20428 Seems really ok although the spout is not very flexible

@"DavecUK"#p13617 [URL=https://i.imgur.com/U0mYj3V.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/U0mYj3V.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

@"prezes"#p13619 mines very similar and probably on something from nu-man, the image I found seems to have brewers droop.

I used a plastic 2 litre water bottle today!

Vesuvius Pressure Profiling Machine - General Discussion

Elcarajillo

The sound is what comes from the vacuum breaker as the boiler heats up, it usually discharges to the drip tray.
The tube Dave pointed out is normally connected to the vac breaker valve.

Spid3r00

Elcarajillo does this mean the tube came off you think? What is consequence that is not connected to vacuum breaker valve?

John_Yossarian

Spid3r00 the steam (before the vacuum breaker closes) will go directly into the innards of the machine. Almost all HX machines did not have a tube on the vacuum breaker and were still OK, but it is a good practice to take the steam/water out.

Spid3r00

John_Yossarian Ok thanks for replay. Just don’t know where to divert the tube… is this same on all Vesuvius that the tube is just freely installed inside the machine?

DavecUK

Spid3r00 it leads to the drip tray, usually there’s a Y connector, joining tubes from the expansion valve and vacuum breaker into a single tube.

tocateclas

As I told in this thread, what I’m doing to avoid this “extrange” pressure interference is not letting the steam boiler to go over 120º before making the espresso. Just to get sure the problem was still here, I have been making my morning capuccinos during this week letting the steam boiler at full pressure. My pump PID settings are 7,5 kP, 0,24kI 80.0kD and the pump acceleration is set at 180.

When steam boiler is hot (mine is set at 128º) this interference is almost always here. Sometimes more evident, sometimes less. I have no manometer in the group but in the screen you can notice it as well. Pressure starts slowly building up but at 1,4 - 1,5b it stops for some seconds. Then the overshoot arrives. Not as high as 12 bars because of pump settings are now different from the videos I uploaded in the forum, it goes up to 10 bars approximately (barely 8 bars with steam boiler under 120º)

Rest of the day: no steam boiler, no stop at 1,4-1,5. First coffee in the morning with steam on but taking care of not surpassing 120º, no stop at 1,4-1,5 bars (and no overshooting).

No water returning to deposit for many months but my question is the same: could this pressure escape through the one way valve?

DavecUK

tocateclas No water returning to deposit for many months but my question is the same: could this pressure escape through the one way valve?

Even if it could and interfere with the sealed brew circuit (which I am not sure it can), it would simply add 1.6 bar pressure…the pressure sensors would detect this and simply reduce the pump max. e.g. if 9 bar were set and 1.6 bar of pressure was from the steam boiler, the pump would ramp up to 7.4 bar.

Please try the settings I gave earlier, which are quite different.

John_Yossarian

tocateclas From what you have shared, if I have got it correctly, you are saying that whenever the steam boiler is at temperature above 120 deg C your overshoot is 1 bar above the requested 9 bars?
So reading between the lines your suggestion is that the extra ca. 1.5 bar from the steam boiler adds up whence the overshooting?
If this “happens” it will go against the basic principles of physics. If you have point of contact between two systems at different pressure, inevitably the higher pressure will be established with the speed of sound in both, there is no way the lower pressure to “add” to the higher. Pressure is intensive characteristics of a system, i.e. you cannot sum up pressure the same way as you could sum up mass/weight.
This is why I cannot get it.
If I have “read” your idea the wrong way I will stand corrected.
EDIT: Just out of curiosity, when you get the overshooting can you notice any difference in the steam boiler pressure reading? If both systems “see” each other there must be some interference.

kautivo

tocateclas my friend your detail in the explication is exactly our problem in Vesuvius…and from my opinion it’s clear the problem isn’t in software configuration, our machines don’t fail with the steam boiler is Off, before when we buy the machine it worked perfect but now here a part is working wrong i hope the solution is near…

kautivo

DavecUK Dear Dave if you read up in post 575 @AJuar checked his Vesuvius with configuration suggested by Paolo and the machine continue failing…

tocateclas

John_Yossarian Thank you, John. No, this is not what is happening. It’s not working just adding an extra bar in the reading. Problem is that during the preinfussion water finds a kind of obstacle and this changes the way the pump behaves. You can see in the videos I uploaded (there was a manometer in that videos). It’s like water has to break a barrier at 1,5 bars and the pid reacts speeding the pump. So overshoot is just a consequence of this problem during the preinfussion phase. It’s difficult to explain… worst for me in English. It’s like you want to close a door but you find some resistance. Then you make more strength but this resistance disappears suddenly and the door is free but… it’s too late to stop and the door slams.

No, there is no difference in the steam pressure reading.

DavecUK

kautivo Dear Dave if you read up in post 575 @AJuar checked his Vesuvius with configuration suggested by Paolo and the machine continue failing…

What were the settings he used, post 575 doesn’t say and I can’t be arsed to read through loads of other posts just in case I can find them? I spent over half a day of my holiday on this already…and just got a load of hassle for not being able to reproduce it.

The settings I recommend are

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/596-vesuvius-pressure-profiling-machine-general-discussion/547

Try them and read the post.

kautivo

DavecUK sorry we will check with your settings, the settings used were this in the Video @AJuar puts also the settings

“if someone want to test this problem i suggest to put KP a 1, KI 0 and KD 35 the pump acc 800 straight 9 bars with blind filter and report if there is a difference with steam boiler on and off.”

But if the problem is in sofware settings why before didn’t happen it (4 machines)…i don’t understand because in factory the machine don’t fail…you saw the videos uploaded, and with steam boiler off never fail!

@AJuar @tocateclas could you test the machine with the settings recommended by Dave and upload video please.

i’m grateful for all your help, your attention, and your pacience.

Thanks a lot.

tocateclas

DavecUK I’m aware you tried to replicate this and it was not possible and I aware you spent quite a lot of time of holiday, I’m really sorry for this. Again, I appreciate you tried to solve this in such a short and busy time. But unfortunately (for me and my machine) this doesn’t change anything. Regardless the pid setting I choose, my machine works different if the service boiler is hot. I can see it, I can hear it and I can taste it when it produces a too slow flow.

Cuprajake

If it cannot be replicated in factory then there is another issue somewhere.

The machine that went back to acs has that come back to the owner yet?

kautivo

Cuprajake Not yet my friend, i prefer they take your time it’s very important to find a solution i don’t want the machine so, with this fail.

AJuar

@DavecUK Yesterday afternoon, I tried the parameters suggested by Dave (3.2kp 0.00 ki 48 kd and 1100 pump acceleration) with Steam boiler on and off, but the machine did not show any difference. I made 12 videos, but I didn’t notice nothing very remarkable (but judging by the sound of the pump there was a difference, but not very evident). Then, I must say that I take care of Dave’s holidays inconvenience, because it is difficult to “cause the machine to fail”, however in my personal morning routine it’s very easy. I will explain this: the machine switches on automatically at 6:50 a.m., I wake up at 7:20 a.m. and I make coffee at 7:30 a.m. When I arrive in front of the machine, the steam boiler is normally at eco mode (12 minutes for eco mode because the machine reaches the temperature in less than 10 minutes), then I make coffee, while the steam boiler rises to 130 degrees Celsius. If I wait a little more time, or if I touch the screen, the steam boiler warm up, and if it rises 130º (approximately) IN THIS CASE THE MACHINE FAIL ALWAYS, the extraction is not normal. My solution for this is switching off the steam boiler before coffee extraction, making the coffee, and then, switching on the steam boiler (with tactile screen it’s very easy and the boiler reaches the temperature quickly) and then I steam the milk. Also, If I make the coffee quickly with eco mode, not problem. I was happy with this, it was not a problem for me, and the Vesuvius coffee is really great, I had assumed this little inconvenience. If I insist with this is only out of pure curiosity, and also to collaborate with my friend @kautivo. When he said to me that Dave and Paolo would look at his machine, I was happy because I thought that you really would find the CAUSE of the problem (it is more important for me than the solution or any partial solution like adapting the pid configuration). Well, in fact it’s not really important for me, I have also spent time with this and I was also determined not to spend more time and effort. I had adapted my morning routine.

I show you the videos of this morning where you can see the failure. The step pressure configuration is: 8” 2 bars, rest at 8 bars. As you can see with the steam boiler ON the pump sound is very different in the pre-infusion, and also pressure rises to 10 bars despite being configurated at 8 bars, after a very pronounced acceleration of the pump (stuck? Circuit empty? i really don’t know). In the video with the steam boiler OFF the pump rises to 8 bars gently.

Video with de Steam boiler ON, different sound, different acceleration, 10 bars:

Configuration: 8” at 2 bars, rest at 8 bars:

https://www.veed.io/view/b912b7e3-235f-4d99-b4c5-d3a462324db2?panel=share

Videio with the Steam OFF, pre-infusion correct, gently acceleration of the pump to 8 bars

https://www.veed.io/view/d78ac11a-6679-4c43-b663-e51ae9fb9971?panel=share

SAME PID AND PUMP CONFIGURATION, BUT DIFFERENT EXTRACTION.

Thanks!

Gagaryn

AJuar SAME PID AND PUMP CONFIGURATION

Bizarre. The pump is clearly accelerating much quicker with the steam boiler on. I have no idea why that would be I’m afraid but I’m sure somebody will.

DavecUK

AJuar Then, I must say that I take care of Dave’s holidays inconvenience, because it is difficult to “cause the machine to fail”, however in my personal morning routine it’s very easy. I will explain this: the machine switches on automatically at 6:50 a.m., I wake up at 7:20 a.m. and I make coffee at 7:30 a.m. When I arrive in front of the machine, the steam boiler is normally at eco mode (12 minutes for eco mode because the machine reaches the temperature in less than 10 minutes), then I make coffee, while the steam boiler rises to 130 degrees Celsius. If I wait a little more time, or if I touch the screen, the steam boiler warm up, and if it rises 130º (approximately) IN THIS CASE THE MACHINE FAIL

Try this test run the machine and steam boiler in a way that there would be a failure e.g. reaches 130C. But just before you pull the shot, switch the steam boiler off…..what happens?

The idea of this is to eliminate temperature of the steam boiler to be the cause….or the fact that’s it an electrical issue due to the the steam boiler being heated.
The other test is to change the boiler priority, then enter a potential fail condition with a reversed boiler priority

The above would be 2 separate tests!

tocateclas

AJuar My solution for this is switching off the steam boiler before coffee extraction, making the coffee, and then, switching on the steam boiler (with tactile screen it’s very easy and the boiler reaches the temperature quickly) and then I steam the milk. Also, If I make the coffee quickly with eco mode, not problem. I was happy with this, it was not a problem for me, and the Vesuvius coffee is really great, I had assumed this little inconvenience. If I insist with this is only out of pure curiosity, and also to collaborate with my friend @kautivo. When he said to me that Dave and Paolo would look at his machine, I was happy because I thought that you really would find the CAUSE of the problem (it is more important for me than the solution or any partial solution like adapting the pid configuration). Well, in fact it’s not really important for me, I have also spent time with this and I was also determined not to spend more time and effort. I had adapted my morning routine.

Yes, that is what I’m doing for years. Not switching the boiler off but playing with the eco mode to keep temperature under 120º. I have adapted my routine, yes, it works ok this way but… it’s annoying.

tocateclas

DavecUK Thank you, I’ll try both.

AJuar

DavecUK Like yesterday, in the afternoon the Vesuvius didn’t fail at all. This is another information that could be important? It only fails in the morning, when the machine is cold, after all night switched off, and it warms from less temperature. Perhaps a valve? I really don’t know, I have no idea.

Thank you very much, tomorrow morning I will do the two suggested tests.

AJuar

DavecUK I have made the two tests, and in both cases the machine tends to fail in a potential failure condition (not always). Also, in one case out of 20 approximately, with the boiler priority, the machine has showed very different pressure behaviour even with the steam boiler off, from cold. I have the video of this but I’m not going to upload because I know that you trust me. This should be an evidence of a capricious mechanical little valve stuck? I don’t know.

To sum up, the machine:

- WITH THE SAME PID CONFIGURATION THE MACHINE MAKES DIFFERENT EXTRACTIONS.

- The machine shows an astonishing regular behaviour with the STEAM BOILER OFF. She makes GREAT COFFEE, or very predictable or regular extractions.

- There is some relationship between the pressure of the STEAM BOILER, because the machine fails an high percentage of times with the STEAM BOILER ON, or with high temperature in any part of the internal machine.

I know that this failure is difficult to solve, but I hope that ACS technicians have the time and the capacity to investigate with the @kautivo Vesuvius machine to try to identify the CAUSE of this capricious failure in order to solve it. If not, I assume that ACS Vesuvius works like this and I’ll continue to make the coffee with my little annoying morning routine (switching off and on the steam boiler in the morning).

Thanks!

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