Not sure, if we have a thread for this. I couldn’t find. This is one of my favourite brews. It’s faster, easier and always give a lovely cup - be it @"MWJB"#139’s or Hoffman’s method. Mostly, I use Mark’s as I find the cup is a little cleaner than Hoffman’s. Yesterday, I opened the [Ethiopian Haru Washed](https://www.thomsonscoffee.com/products/ethiopia-haru?_pos=2&_sid=4420db8ae&_ss=r&variant=39311835398231). Pulled a few shots and brewed on Clever. The cups were ok. I wasn’t impressed, given the cup score of 87.25. I bought this as a light roast. It’s a medium light for me. I am drinking a cup from V60 now after brewing this. The dosage details are: 3.9 Jx Pro rotations, 16.3g powder, 272g water and got 237g liquid. I used Mark’s method, 30g every 30s pouring in circles. The each pour lasted 8-11s. The last pour was at the centre. The total time was 5:01 mins. The cup was very clean, light, very smooth, full of citrus flavours and sweet citrus notes, which are Bergamot orange. As a result, there is a little bit of fruity bitterness, which also creeps in disturbing what is otherwise a good bag. I am therefore not a great fan of this bag. If one is brewing this exclusively or drinking it as a long black, it is good as long as one is aware of the tiny fruity bitter aftertaste. It won’t cut with milk! We buy beans, which can be a very good milk-based coffee and also pull a nice brew. I don’t think I will buy this bag again. It is not for us. It was good buy considering I paid about £23 for a KG vs the full price of £33 and has a cup score of 87.25. If you want to buy, please try a smaller bag and see if this is for you.

I do enjoy a V60 from time to time as well.

@"DavecUK"#p15221 How clean, easy and very good the cup has become, thanks to a lot of hard work and contributions by @"MWJB"#139 and Hoffman. I don’t even have to wonder what my grind size is. Just start with the same settings and a few clicks change are all required.

Blackcat El Salvador Los Luchadores with a cup score of 86.5 Mark’s method. 16.4g, 275g water, 4:44 mins, 242g liquid. Cranberry and chocolate after taste for me. Very nice black coffee.

@"MWJB"#139 Thanks to all your research work on various brew types and Hoffman’s on V60, the pour overs have become easier. It’s very difficult to get the brews wrong. Many thanks mate!

Thanks & you're most welcome :-) It warms my heart to see folk getting pleasing brews. When I first started making brewed coffee, pour over seemed seemed unfathomable, driven by luck/beneficial spirits and I, like many others, sought 'safety' in immersion brews, where you could at least dictate brew time & not be reliant on things outside of your control like flow rate. But, as I built a better understanding, I realised that pour over is certainly as predictable & repeatable as any brew method, reasonably quick too. Of course, I still enjoy immersions, but 95% (just a guess) of my brews are pour overs. Sure, I come a little unstuck every now & then, but usually due to trying a new regime/brew weight/grinder or setting.

Can imagine how hard the journey to where you are now would have been. May have taken you months, if not years, of dedicated research and hard work to achieve the expected outcome. Minions like us can now use your template and make a damn good coffee. The beauty is I haven’t seen the need to change my grind settings for different beans. 😊 It hardly requires any major adjustments except a click or two on either side. > @"MWJB"#p16943 Of course, I still enjoy immersions, but 95% (just a guess) of my brews are pour overs. Sure, I come a little unstuck every now & then, but usually due to trying a new regime/brew weight/grinder or setting. We hardly take out our Indian (immersion filter), unless some one gifts a bag of ground coffee. 😂 Many thanks and best of luck for keep pushing the boundaries. Please do post regularly so that we get to read and learn from your brewings. I also think you may want to consider sharing your journey so far on this forum. 😊 Cheers mate!

Blackcat’s Ethiopian medium 20.1g, 335g water, Mark’s method, 284g liquid and 6:02 mins in total. Another balanced, fruity and sweet cup; had a tiny lingering orange bitterness after taste, which I think is the impact of the orange peel. I am grinding coarser than I normally would. I brewed this coffee for the first time. Perhaps, I will grind a tad coarser next time. Clever would be interesting, although I doubt it would make a difference to the cup. https://i.imgur.com/aCaNR9W.jpg Edit : Please ignore the espresso shot.

**Django Santa Ana** Brewed 16g on 270g of boiling water using Marks method. Got 231.3g liquid. The blueberry, mild sweet blackberry and vanilla taste come out clearly. Considering I ground this at the lower end of the pour over range at 3.6 turns on my grinder, it did produce a slight raw fruit bitter after taste; the cup was very good though. There were no silts, although the mild bitterness call for a coarse grind; I wondered if the water was too hot >100C that resulted in bitterness. Perhaps, I will grind at the normal setting of 3.8-3.9 and see. https://imgur.com/a/c4uOhlz

@"MWJB"#139 Given the tasting notes (blueberry, blackberry, vanilla), I thought the bitterness seeps through the grind size. Considering the other person also got it but only at the first sip, could you explain how does it creep in? I can understand notes like Rhubarb, fruit peel, dark chocolate, etc., producing the (sweet) bitterness. I wonder if Anaerobic natural process is contributing to the tiny bitterness. It is tiny sweet bitter. I felt it in the espresso as well. IMO, it doesn’t alter the taste profile, although does brighten up the coffee a bit. Thx mate!

If it's around the first 2 sips and a generic bitterness, it's likely fine particles suspended at the surface of the brew. Sometimes this just comes with the territory and I don't worry too much if the rest of the cup tastes OK. If it isdtracting from your enjoyment & happening all the time, grind a tad coarser and/or tray and agitate less. To me sweet & bitter tend to be poles apart, I understand a mix, but I'm not sure I grasp sweet bitterness?

V60

LMSC

MWJB Yeah! Is it normal to have such a difference? If after brewing say 10-12 coffee beans, most of them fall in a range of 1 standard decision (as an example) and a couple of them as outliers, would you exclude them?

MWJB

LMSC It’s natural variation, rather than a difference. If you’re grind is 9% that’s the average, might sometimes be nearer 8, or 10. I’d only change the setting based on brew results.

LMSC If after brewing say 10-12 coffee beans, most of them fall in a range of 1 standard decision (as an example) and a couple of them as outliers, would you exclude them?

Sorry, not sure I grasp the question, but I don’t exclude any beans/brews as long as I have made a couple of brews to get my eye in with a grinder.

LMSC

MWJB Sorry, not sure I grasp the question,

You answered!

MWJB I’d only change the setting based on brew results.

Let’s say, you brew a few cups on a new grinder to get a grind ref. Let’s assume that’s 8.8% Kruve 400. That’s close enough to call 9% Kruve and the grind ref is set at point x.
My understanding is you will brew another 10 coffee beans (more the better) at point x without sifting each time. Is that correct ?
If the brew is not to your liking (say 6/7 and not 8), you would adjust that grind setting for that bag of coffee to get the desired result in the cup. The next bag will again be ground at the point x. This continues, say, as long as the average is 9% most of the time as the brew result is consistent at that average level.
Does it mean, you will never sift unless you see a large enough deviation in the brew result of different coffee requiring a new grind reference? If this is correct, previously identified grind reference is not relevant anymore?

Hope I made myself clear.

Many thanks!

MWJB

LMSC Let’s say, you brew a few cups on a new grinder to get a grind ref. Let’s assume that’s 8.8% Kruve 400. That’s close enough to call 9% Kruve and the grind ref is set at point x.

OK.

LMSC My understanding is you will brew another 10 coffee beans (more the better) at point x without sifting each time. Is that correct ?

Yes, correct because it is the grind setting I am keeping constant.

LMSC If the brew is not to your liking (say 6/7 and not 8), you would adjust that grind setting for that bag of coffee to get the desired result in the cup. The next bag will again be ground at the point x. This continues, say, as long as the average is 9% most of the time as the brew result is consistent at that average level.

If a brew from 1 bag is 5 (neither like/dislike) or 6 (like a little), I would compare to existing brew scores and think whether it is the roast/bean/roaster that is the problem. I’d give it another go, or two, maybe at a higher/lower extraction and if scores stayed at ⅚ the beans go in the bin. A coffee scoring 8 (like a lot) most of the time might drop into 7 (like moderately - a fair, somewhat enjoyable cup that you know could be better) occasionally. I would only change the grind if multiple coffees were displaying the same fault, with no other obvious detectable faults. Then, if I changed grind that would be the start of the next set of 10+.

LMSC Does it mean, you will never sift unless you see a large enough deviation in the brew result of different coffee requiring a new grind reference? If this is correct, previously identified grind reference is not relevant anymore?

I would next sift if I had a new grind setting/grinder, that had delivered a good set of brews at a given setting. If I sifted a grind setting and got 9%, then that is the reference for that setting (+/-1%), it still stands.

LMSC

These detailed explanations are important. It has brought a lot of clarity. 🙏🏽

MWJB If I sifted a grind setting and got 9%.

It does not have to be strictly 9%, is it not? You are ok as long as it is + / - 1% from 9%.

MWJB I would next sift if I had a new grind setting/grinder,

Makes sense. Otherwise, one will be sifting every new bag of beans. Saves time and effort in the daily routine.

MWJB maybe at a higher/lower extraction

That’s changing the grind setting a bit, is that correct ?

MWJB

LMSC It does not have to be strictly 9%, is it not? You are ok as long as it is + / - 1% from 9%

Yes, at the smaller end 400-500 +/-1% is normal variation. As you get to the larger end of the distribution 1400/1600 variation can be larger. The key thing is set the grinder, brew, when you have a good tasting sample, sift.

LMSC That’s changing the grind setting a bit, is that correct ?

I have more than one grinder, so I change settings very infrequently. I normally just switch to another grinder that is set a bit finer. You could also switch to a known setting that shifts the EY to where you want to explore, based on notes.

LMSC

Having sifted to get a grind reference at 21 on the Duo at 11.6% Kruve 400 using Crankhouse Gautemala Finca, I brewed their Jeremiah . The curiosity got the better off me. I sifted to get 10.7% Kruve 400, which was well short off the 12% mark. The same coffee that scored 8 out of 9 at 8.8% Kruve 400 (15g, 33g every 30s) got only 6 on the taste front (45g every 40s on 15g coffee) this time (10.6% Kruve).

I have just 1 × 15g Jeremiah coffee left to brew. I am thinking if I should get a new grind reference either using Crankhouse Guatemala or their Winton aiming for 12% Kruve 400 to brew the last dosage of Jeremiah or continue brewing other coffee bags. I am leaning towards the former as the Jeremiah is such an excellent coffee.

MWJB

LMSC Having sifted to get a grind reference at 21 on the Duo at 11.6% Kruve 400 using Crankhouse Gautemala Finca, I brewed their Jeremiah . The curiosity got the better off me. I sifted to get 10.7% Kruve 400, which was well short off the 12% mark. The same coffee that scored 8 out of 9 at 8.8% Kruve 400 (15g, 33g every 30s) got only 6 on the taste front (45g every 40s on 15g coffee) this time (10.6% Kruve).

So you ground coarser to get 10.7%? (only a % off 12%, rounded).

What didn’t you like about the 6 scored cup?

What were the final water weights, 233g and 225g?

If it’s your last 15g, why no do what you did on the 8/9cup again?

LMSC

MWJB So you ground coarser to get 10.7%? (only a % off 12%, rounded).

No! Went fine from 31 to 21! 😁

MWJB What didn’t you like about the 6 scored cup?

There was something unlikeable about the cup. For want of better words, the acidity or shall we say sourness was too pronounced. It was a harsher cup (not medicinal bitter at all). This wasn’t there the last time that scored 8/9.

MWJB What were the final water weights, 233g and 225g?

228g (aimed 225g).

edited!

LMSC

MWJB If it’s your last 15g, why no do what you did on the 8/9cup again?

Yeah! Makes sense.

MWJB

LMSC

MWJB I could not resist brewing again. I used the last dose of Jeremiah. Went finer by 4 marks to 17 on the Duo for 11.8% Kruve 400.

Brewed 15g, 225.3g water, 45g x 40s, average pour of 20s, brew time (dry bed) was 3.45 mins. It was nice. As good as the 8/9, although I would score this at 7.5. The notes / tastes were fine except that the Orange taste was a bit on the enhanced side.

I can only attribute to the average pour time of 20s. The low pour time was 12s. The high was about 25-27s. This might have agitated the bed a little more than otherwise.

Overall, I think I am going to settle into two grind references - 12% and 9% - and see how I get on going forward.

I also wonder how 60g//L vs the current 66g//L would influence the taste and the TDS.

MWJB

LMSC Taste, I can’t say, you’re preference is up to you.

TDS wise is easy enough to calculate, equivalent extraction would be 0.16%TDS stronger at 66g/L, so a 1.39%TDS cup at 60g/L becomes 1.55% at 66g/L. There would be some overlap between ratios over a big sample, but this is really just a maths excercise.

LMSC

Ground and sifted 15.4g of Cartwheel Elmer Mego. Couldn’t be asked to remove the 0.4g. The grind reference was 17 on the Duo for 12% Kruve 400. I got 11.4% Kruve 400. I had 45g x 40s x 4 and the rest of the water as a last pour. I did 2 in the middle and 3 as circles using a metal strainer. The total time was 4:16 mins, which was a little longer.

The coffee was very sweet, smooth and had a nice clarity and flavour. The fruity flavours were as in grapes, melon, plums. It had a lovely sugar (literally) taste at the finish and it lingered for a long time.

I enjoyed drinking this coffee and I will score this 8 / 9. I will see where does the 9% Kruve 400 take me with this bag before brewing Crankhouse Winton.

LMSC

Brewed the same Cartwheel for my morning coffee. It was a little larger dose at 18g. The grind ref was 31 on the Duo at 9% Kruve 400 and got 8.1% Kruve 400 upon sifting.

It’s early days and I would like to sift the initial set of 10 bags to get a view of where they fall.

For consistency, I stuck to the 33g x 30s and used the metal strainer. The total water was 225.9g and had a dry bed at 4:20 mins.

This coffee is so good, but I preferred the 12% Kruve 400 to the 9% Kruve 400. I thought the former was a bit sweeter than this. I will score the morning brew at 7.5/9.

LMSC

Brewed the Crankhouse Winton Benetez. The usual 15g for 9% Kruve 400 brew. Sifted to get 8.2% Kruve 400. Stuck to the 9% pour regime.

What a coffee this has been! From ground to brew, Jasmine aroma is so fresh and powerful. The aroma hits the nostrils even when the cup is left on the work table to cool a bit.

It’s not a perfect brew in terms of taste. Something was lacking - was it a little underwhelming ? It was a very good cup. I am wondering if there was any brew malfunction or a tighter grind is required? The total brew time was 3:25s, which is perhaps a tad faster. The only way to resolve it is trying both choices or either of them. I would score 7.5/9. It can definitely improve.

I have brewed 4 bags on 9% Kruve grind ref. The three of the 4 have 8.1-8.2% Kruve 400. This is still within 1% variation. Considering 3 of 4 bags are at the lower end, does it make sense to fine grind the coffee and aim for a tighter grind reference? Not sure, if it is worth it.

MWJB

What’s the average liking score?

Do the majority of cups have a similar generic fault?

Are you wanting to change grind to cure the fault (good) or to ensure 9% at 400 Kruve (not really the point). If 3 out of 4 bags are 8%, doesn’t that mean your average is 8% rather than 9%?

LMSC

MWJB What’s the average liking score?

Good 7.5!

MWJB Do the majority of cups have a similar generic fault?

No. One of the 3 bags scoring the low 8 was ok across the brew regime. I will discount it. The remaining two are fine.

MWJB Are you wanting to change grind to cure the fault (good) or to ensure 9% at 400 Kruve (not really the point). If 3 out of 4 bags are 8%, doesn’t that mean your average is 8% rather than 9%?

If taste is the factor, which I think is, no point in changing. It is just an 8% Kruve 400. I should continue brewing some more bags and then decide.

I don’t think 9% is a strict regime. Yes, as of now, the average is just above 8%. It could improve with a few more bags.

MWJB

LMSC I don’t think 9% is a strict regime.

No it isn’t, it’s only a reference for grind size with the brew sizes & regimes it is tested with, if you do something a bit different then the grind size will shift with those changes.

I think most people would really struggle to brew at say 6% or coarser.

LMSC

MWJB I think most people would really struggle to brew at say 6% or coarser.

Sorry, could you explain? Struggle as they tend to brew stronger cup or other way around.

The majority won’t be sifting the grinds, in any case. So, the % at Kruve isn’t relevant to them, it is not ?

MWJB

LMSC 6%, or less, at 400 Kruve would be a coarse grind, so likely to under-extract.

Whether sifting or not, the grind will produce a % at 400 Kruve, that grind will be what it is, just if you have measured it you will know what it is. Same as bean weights, pressure, temp, etc. Because someone doesn’t know their grind is 4% 400Kruve doesn’t mean they’re able to then do magic.

You usually change ratio to effect different strengths, rather than grind.

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