Hello everyone, I am new to this forum, but would really appreciate your thoughts and advice. I am considering upgrading from my current Sage Duo Temp Pro. I am the single coffee drinker and only drink 4-5 coffees a week - flat whites mostly. Ideally would like to buy something that ensures longevity, doesn’t require modding to the internals and is under 1000. I would be able to get the Elizabeth, but wondering if I really need a double boiler or if I could get similar coffee with a single boiler like lelit Grace, Glenda or Victoria. Lelit seems to offer the best value for money on paper, but happy to look at other machines.

> @"AAA1"#p18969 I am the single coffee drinker and only drink 4-5 coffees a week - flat whites mostly. For this usage profile Mara X can be ideal as well. Any reason you didn't include it in your list? Which grinder will you pair with the machine?

@"Doram"#p18970 The heat up time and the lack of pre-infusion.

As @"Doram"#54 advised, Mara X will serve you well. If your taste, appetite and itch to upgrade happen in the future, which we don’t rule out, Liz will then come handy as an upgrade from current machine. Of course, you can upgrade again! Btw, @"AAA1"#p18971, welcome to the forum! 😊

> @"AAA1"#p18971 The heat up time and the lack of pre-infusion. I believe Elizabeth heat-up time is \~17 minuets. Mara X is 24 minuets. No idea what it is for the other machines you are looking at. With most currently using smart plugs and with a profile of 4-5 drinks per week maybe that's not such a big issue? As for pre-infusion, if that's important you could add flow control to Mara X if you wanted to. Would give you more in terms of pre-infusion, plus other things that the other machines won't do.

It's a tricky price point. If you didn't drink milk I'd of said the ECM Puristika, I'd always say go dual boiler over hx, as clever as the marax is, the dual boiler just gives more stable temps. You could look at the ACS minima, e61 group so you can add flow control at a later date, @"MediumRoastSteam"#51 has an Elizabeth and can talk more about its features

@"AAA1"#p18969 Wwelcome to the forum…you will get lots of good advice here.

I understand the Sage has very quick heat up times so you will likely struggle to get close to those. There aren't too many better single boiler machines available, there are a few with a PID but they tend to cost more than a modded Rancilio Silvia/Gaggia Classic so probably not worth the expense. Spend a little more and you start hitting the Mara X or Minima price range. You're in a similar situation to myself, I like the idea of upgrading (and longevity/simplicity is a big thing I look for) but when you're not a high volume user then a dual boiler machine is unnecessary but there's not many machines available that have the same quality as a dual boiler machine but at a more attractive price point.

Using a good espresso machine at this price range, specially new, will restrict you considerably. @"AAA1"#576 - what about grinder? Do you have one already? Have you factored one in your budget? The Elizabeth is a great machine, but it is what it is, and by that I mean you can’t accessorise it. I always said that, to me at least, he Elizabeth is an entry level DB. The MaraX a high end HX machine.

@"DavecUK"#p18977 thank you and thanks for the review of the Elizabeth.

Buying advice

Cuprajake

the liz will be the best for you, for that bit extra over a marax its a no brainer for me, dual boiler, future proof and if you have guests can knock out brew after brew.

hornbyben

AAA1 to answer your specific question, yes, a single boiler can make just as good a coffee as any other machine. It’s basically the same as a dual boiler on the making coffee side, it’s just the steaming that’s different, as you have to wait for it to heat the boiler to steam temperature. I do think a pid is worth having though, as temperature surfing is a hassle.

Here’s a list of what I think are the pros and cons of a single boiler.

The disadvantages are:

When you want to steam you have to flick a switch and wait to bring the boiler up to steam temp.
- This doesn’t take long, maybe 30s or so. If you flick the switch as soon as you finish the shot then by the time you’ve flushed the group, and emptied and cleaned the portafilter you’re pretty much there.
- for two milk drinks I just pull the shots back to back and then steam enough for both drinks in one go
- for more than two drinks, after steaming you have to hit the hot water switch to refill the boiler, and then flush through until the temperature is in the brewing range and then wait for it to settle. This is obviously more hassle than a HX or dual boiler, but from your initial post you said you’d only be doing more when you had friends round in which case I assume you’re not in a rush.
you have to remember to refill the boiler
- this sounds complicated, but soon becomes second nature, especially when you understand how it works.
- for coffee, the pump runs, so the water that comes out is replaced by water being pumped in. When steaming though, you’re heating the water in the boiler and turning that into steam. This means the water in the boiler is being boiled off. Theoretically, if you steamed enough you could reduce the water in the boiler to less than the elements, and then when they run they could over heat. Refilling is easy though, open the steam valve, press the hot water switch (which runs the pump), and wait until water comes out.

The advantages:

they are cheaper, as you’re only paying for one boiler
they are smaller, as you only need space for one boiler
they are more forgiving of your water, because the boiler is continually flushed through (unlike the steam boiler of a dual boiler)
they are easy to descale, you just add descalant to the water tank, pump through your boiler volume (do in stages so you don’t wear your pump, the duty cycle is usually 90s on 30s off), let it heat a bit and then wait 20 mins. Do this a couple of times and then flush through until you can’t taste descalant in the water (if you use citric acid this is safe). I tend to alternate flushing through the group head and steam wand, as well as running a bit with the steam valve closed to flush through the opv. This makes sure every water path is descaled.
- my approach is that I calculated how long it would take to build up 5g of scale based on my untreated tap water and descale based on that frequency (2 months for me in the Thames valley based on 2-3 drinks per day). I then use a Brita filter, so the hardness should be less than my calculations, providing some error margin. This doesn’t guarantee I’ll never have an issue, but it seems to be working well so far, and I’m pretty comfortable stripping it down if necessary. For my Rancilio Silvia I can get a lot of spare parts for the price of an RO system (or electricity cost if distilling).
energy efficient
- the boilers tend to be a bit smaller, so you’re not heating as much water (this isn’t an issue for a few drinks), and for steaming your heating water that was already at around 90°C to 140° C, rather than a massive boiler from room temp to steaming temperature.
they tend to be easy to modify and work on if you’re into that sort of thing
- dimmer mod is an easy way to give flow control
- if it doesn’t have one many people fit pid controllers to give good temp control. You can go the whole hog and add pressure profiling control with a microprocessor (this is where I’ve settled)

Doram

hornbyben my approach is that I calculated how long it would take to build up 5g of scale based on my untreated tap water and descale based on that frequency (2 months for me in the Thames valley based on 2-3 drinks per day). I then use a Brita filter, so the hardness should be less than my calculations, providing some error margin. This doesn’t guarantee I’ll never have an issue, but it seems to be working well so far, and I’m pretty comfortable stripping it down if necessary. For my Rancilio Silvia I can get a lot of spare parts for the price of an RO system (or electricity cost if distilling).

Great post.

To add to the descaling point: I have had a Silvia for over 20 years. I only used very hard tap water with her and never had an issue caused by scale. I used to descale when I felt some resistance build up on the steam tap (this would usually take over a year to form, so I wouldn’t usually descale more than once a year, and often even less than that). After descale the steam tap was moving smooth as butter again.

I doubt that my current machine would take such hard water abuse with a grin.

AAA1

hornbyben thank you very much! This really settles it for me. I think I will go for a single boiler. Most of the disadvantages are not something I am worried about. Also, the Lelit Grace and Victoria auto fill the boiler after steaming.

I think I will go for the Victoria.

hornbyben

Doram Silvia’s are definitely built like tanks

MediumRoastSteam

AAA1 Also, the Lelit Grace and Victoria auto fill the boiler after steaming

Are you sure?

Edit: not quite an auto-fill, but you can press the steam button to return to brewing mode and for the machine to refill the boiler. Most likely a timed fill rather than with a sensor.

hornbyben

AAA1 looks like a nice little machine. I have no direct experience of the Victoria, but I’m sure @DavecUK can give you some insights into the specific model.

AAA1

MediumRoastSteam yes, I have asked Lelit about this.

This is their answer:
“Grace belongs to the VipLine: all models belonging to this line switch automatically from steam mode to coffee mode after a few minutes (after using steam).”

Cuprajake

dont forget to feed it good water

LMSC

While we completely understand and appreciate your decision to buy Victoria or Grace, please ensure that you will not suffer from buyers’ remorse.

The number of milk-based drinks a week seem not much. However, things can change once you get a decent machine. Your appetite for coffee can change. You may start pulling more shots for milk-based coffee. When and if you have friends and family come over, they may be interested in a cuppa from your lovely set up!

In the end, it is your call. You have got some great views and recommendations. You buy what fits the requirement, budget and ensure you are happy with the decision.

Unless I missed your response, you haven’t shared your situation with water. Please do address it.

Good luck with your purchase and let’s know how you got on.

Dusk

LMSC

I guess this a question of whether you want something that is perfect for the job that you do 1% of the time and overkill for the job you do 99% of the time or vice versa.

I personally like the idea of dual boiler but the more I read, the more I think it will be more hassle than it’s worth. In reality someone who makes max two drinks at time(in most instances) doesn’t need a dual boiler, however nice it might be for the occasional guest.

I good workflow might make up a lot of the difference between the two machines for multiple drinks

AAA1

LMSC on the water, for my sage I haven’t been very good and used brita to filter the water, which I understand is not the most effective way. I live in the North, which from what I have seen is not too bad. Anyway, for the new machine I plan to use bottled water. I think the Tesco brand has been recommended on a few forums.

DavecUK

hornbyben Sadly no, I know nothing about the Victoria, machines of that level have very little interest for me nowadays and it’s the same for machines in the rarefied upper echelons of price. One because there’s no challenge (for me), the latter because anything I do would make no difference and affect a tiny number of people at best.

hornbyben

DavecUK fair enough

CoyoteOldMan

DavecUK I realise that given your response to @hornbyben … I may get the same response again, but you seem to imply that the “lesser” machines on the Lelit range don’t share much with their bigger sisters (e.g. Victoria with Elizabeth). Is that really so? I would have thought that there are significant economies of scale and scope in producing a full line - thus some general conclusions about whether a machine is likely to work well (or have weak spots) could be deduced from the performance of other products in that line (e.g. the group is/is not thermally very stable). Or are the operating parameters so sensitive to very small changes that really no meaningful information can be gleaned?

DavecUK

CoyoteOldMan It’s simply they just don’t hold any interest or challenge to me in their current form they have been taken about as far as they can.

Elizabeth was verging on that for me when I first saw it….however, I am glad they sent me one just in case I’d look at it, because it turned out to be a very clever machine with some issues to be solved. An interesting project.

CoyoteOldMan

Thanks. It will be interesting to see how they fit in with the rest of the Breville/Sage line … and what gets dropped.

AAA1

If it’s of any help, from my research, there are quite a few differences between the Victoria and Elizabeth. The main one is the pre-infusion and possibly the materials. The OPV valve is different as well.

LMSC

AAA1 Considering the environmental impact, since your coffee usage is not on the higher side, you may consider Zero water, whose users are generally happy with it. Users like @dutchy101 living in a hard-water area gets 30-35 litres before the filter requires any change. You are in north. If your water is relatively softer, you may get more.

AAA1

LMSC thanks I will look into it

dndrich

When working with my Barista Express making milk drinks, I found it a bit of a hassle waiting for the steam nozzle to come up to pressure. With my Elizabeth it is always ready. That is just satisfying. And the steam power is robust also. You will live with this machine a long time. The single boiler machines have a number of significant advantages, particularly on the cost and maintenance side. But ultimately since I make milk drinks, having the steam at the ready, and powerful, was worth the additional expense and possible descaling issues going forward. Time will tell. I have had the machine for 6 months, and I just love it.

Dusk

dndrich

With my single boiler machine, in the time I’ve cleaned my portafilter the steam is good to go so waiting has never been an issue.

« Previous Page Next Page »