Hello everyone, I am new to this forum, but would really appreciate your thoughts and advice. I am considering upgrading from my current Sage Duo Temp Pro. I am the single coffee drinker and only drink 4-5 coffees a week - flat whites mostly. Ideally would like to buy something that ensures longevity, doesn’t require modding to the internals and is under 1000. I would be able to get the Elizabeth, but wondering if I really need a double boiler or if I could get similar coffee with a single boiler like lelit Grace, Glenda or Victoria. Lelit seems to offer the best value for money on paper, but happy to look at other machines.

> @"AAA1"#p18969 I am the single coffee drinker and only drink 4-5 coffees a week - flat whites mostly. For this usage profile Mara X can be ideal as well. Any reason you didn't include it in your list? Which grinder will you pair with the machine?

@"Doram"#p18970 The heat up time and the lack of pre-infusion.

As @"Doram"#54 advised, Mara X will serve you well. If your taste, appetite and itch to upgrade happen in the future, which we don’t rule out, Liz will then come handy as an upgrade from current machine. Of course, you can upgrade again! Btw, @"AAA1"#p18971, welcome to the forum! 😊

> @"AAA1"#p18971 The heat up time and the lack of pre-infusion. I believe Elizabeth heat-up time is \~17 minuets. Mara X is 24 minuets. No idea what it is for the other machines you are looking at. With most currently using smart plugs and with a profile of 4-5 drinks per week maybe that's not such a big issue? As for pre-infusion, if that's important you could add flow control to Mara X if you wanted to. Would give you more in terms of pre-infusion, plus other things that the other machines won't do.

It's a tricky price point. If you didn't drink milk I'd of said the ECM Puristika, I'd always say go dual boiler over hx, as clever as the marax is, the dual boiler just gives more stable temps. You could look at the ACS minima, e61 group so you can add flow control at a later date, @"MediumRoastSteam"#51 has an Elizabeth and can talk more about its features

@"AAA1"#p18969 Wwelcome to the forum…you will get lots of good advice here.

I understand the Sage has very quick heat up times so you will likely struggle to get close to those. There aren't too many better single boiler machines available, there are a few with a PID but they tend to cost more than a modded Rancilio Silvia/Gaggia Classic so probably not worth the expense. Spend a little more and you start hitting the Mara X or Minima price range. You're in a similar situation to myself, I like the idea of upgrading (and longevity/simplicity is a big thing I look for) but when you're not a high volume user then a dual boiler machine is unnecessary but there's not many machines available that have the same quality as a dual boiler machine but at a more attractive price point.

Using a good espresso machine at this price range, specially new, will restrict you considerably. @"AAA1"#576 - what about grinder? Do you have one already? Have you factored one in your budget? The Elizabeth is a great machine, but it is what it is, and by that I mean you can’t accessorise it. I always said that, to me at least, he Elizabeth is an entry level DB. The MaraX a high end HX machine.

@"DavecUK"#p18977 thank you and thanks for the review of the Elizabeth.

Buying advice

hornbyben

AAA1 looks like a nice little machine. I have no direct experience of the Victoria, but I’m sure @DavecUK can give you some insights into the specific model.

DavecUK

hornbyben Sadly no, I know nothing about the Victoria, machines of that level have very little interest for me nowadays and it’s the same for machines in the rarefied upper echelons of price. One because there’s no challenge (for me), the latter because anything I do would make no difference and affect a tiny number of people at best.

hornbyben

DavecUK fair enough

CoyoteOldMan

DavecUK I realise that given your response to @hornbyben … I may get the same response again, but you seem to imply that the “lesser” machines on the Lelit range don’t share much with their bigger sisters (e.g. Victoria with Elizabeth). Is that really so? I would have thought that there are significant economies of scale and scope in producing a full line - thus some general conclusions about whether a machine is likely to work well (or have weak spots) could be deduced from the performance of other products in that line (e.g. the group is/is not thermally very stable). Or are the operating parameters so sensitive to very small changes that really no meaningful information can be gleaned?

Dusk

LMSC

I guess this a question of whether you want something that is perfect for the job that you do 1% of the time and overkill for the job you do 99% of the time or vice versa.

I personally like the idea of dual boiler but the more I read, the more I think it will be more hassle than it’s worth. In reality someone who makes max two drinks at time(in most instances) doesn’t need a dual boiler, however nice it might be for the occasional guest.

I good workflow might make up a lot of the difference between the two machines for multiple drinks

DavecUK

CoyoteOldMan It’s simply they just don’t hold any interest or challenge to me in their current form they have been taken about as far as they can.

Elizabeth was verging on that for me when I first saw it….however, I am glad they sent me one just in case I’d look at it, because it turned out to be a very clever machine with some issues to be solved. An interesting project.

CoyoteOldMan

Thanks. It will be interesting to see how they fit in with the rest of the Breville/Sage line … and what gets dropped.

AAA1

If it’s of any help, from my research, there are quite a few differences between the Victoria and Elizabeth. The main one is the pre-infusion and possibly the materials. The OPV valve is different as well.

AAA1

LMSC on the water, for my sage I haven’t been very good and used brita to filter the water, which I understand is not the most effective way. I live in the North, which from what I have seen is not too bad. Anyway, for the new machine I plan to use bottled water. I think the Tesco brand has been recommended on a few forums.

LMSC

AAA1 Considering the environmental impact, since your coffee usage is not on the higher side, you may consider Zero water, whose users are generally happy with it. Users like @dutchy101 living in a hard-water area gets 30-35 litres before the filter requires any change. You are in north. If your water is relatively softer, you may get more.

AAA1

LMSC thanks I will look into it

dndrich

When working with my Barista Express making milk drinks, I found it a bit of a hassle waiting for the steam nozzle to come up to pressure. With my Elizabeth it is always ready. That is just satisfying. And the steam power is robust also. You will live with this machine a long time. The single boiler machines have a number of significant advantages, particularly on the cost and maintenance side. But ultimately since I make milk drinks, having the steam at the ready, and powerful, was worth the additional expense and possible descaling issues going forward. Time will tell. I have had the machine for 6 months, and I just love it.

Dusk

dndrich

With my single boiler machine, in the time I’ve cleaned my portafilter the steam is good to go so waiting has never been an issue.

dndrich

Dusk Sounds good. I would bet it works well because it has a good boiler with some volume. My experience was with the Barista Express, which has simply an on demand thermoblock. So it is really not a good comparison with a good single boiler. I should think a good single boiler machine would be much better. I definitely considered it.

hornbyben

Dusk I agree. Clean the portafilter and weigh out the milk and by then it should be ready to steam.

If I’m doing more than three coffees (the max milk I can steam in one go) then it’s a bit of a faff, as you have to flush water through until the boiler temp is low enough, but this is rare and never when I’m in a rush (only when entertaining). For me the advantages of a SBDU, and the fact it fits my needs perfectly 95% of the time far out weigh the disadvantages.

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