Pretty longish video with JH and Prof Tim Spector. I have saved it to my play list to watch leisurely. https://youtu.be/XO-7irGCaTA

I skimmed it listening to the bits I was interested….pretty good/interesting chat!

Interesting video. Nothing new for most of us. The main points are : - Coffee is healthy and contains more soluble fibre than people think. - Drink coffee the way we would like to drink - Does affect sleep and caffeine can stay in our blood for more than 5 to 7 hours. - Decaf is good and is not definitely a cheaper drink. JH avoids caffeine after 3 pm. - Adding milk to coffee is ok and probably less reason to add it in light and medium light roasts as they are not bitter -Coffee from shops are generally bitter and hence milk-based drinks are popular -It will be good if people can experiment drinking coffee without milk to get a real taste of it!

My phone suggested this to me today: https://phys.org/news/2023-06-unsustainable-coffee-production-people-sick.html

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p46792 I guess the use of agrichemicals (especially the banned ones) is not great. One thing though, if they weren't employed in the coffee industry and making money etc.. What else would they be doing, living in poverty, growing cocaine, or poppies (which is what they usually do instead of coffee). It could be argued that more people will get ill and die from the alternatives at the moment? I know one thing for sure…when the west steps in and (helps) interferes many years later, it's hard to see the positive effects of that help. I'm thinking of Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Ukraine, even Iran (where USA ) interfered big time to remove the then Shah….dunno

Is there any correlation, or recommendation in the video as to how much coffee is healthy, or a tipping point where it generally becomes unhealthy?

99% of our daily lives are bad for our health, from the stuff we wash in, eat, drive, breathe etc I enjoy coffee. If it kills me I'll die happy

@"Cuprajake"#p46798 - same here. I am a firm believer that it’s fine to have things in moderation. As you say, I enjoy coffee and won’t stop drinking unless my doctor tells me to. Same with beer, same with wine, red meets, cured meats, etc, etc etc.

Funny but it seems that whatever we eat or drink if over done it can cause us harm. Even scientists say that a vegan diet is not altogether healthy and there are elements in meat which we need that a plant based diet just cannot give you. Plus, I have seen a lot of overweight vegetarians/vegans, so whatever it is they are eating cannot be that good for them surely or like us meat eaters are they just greedy. I guess the answer for everyone including the vegetarians and vegans is 'a little bit of what you fancy does you good' A lot does not. I remember seeing this programme, where this large lady was complaining about being overweight and couldn't understand it as she said she ate healthily, and produced her normal breakfast bowl of fresh fruit berries etc to prove it. Trouble was, the bowl was piled high with all this lovely sweet sugary fresh fruit and what does sugar have lots of…calories. To me, the biggest problem we have especially in the west, is lack of both self control and personal responsibility (and yes to a certain extent I put myself in that bracket, especailly as I've gotten older). We smoke and drink and pig out on stuff, can't be arsed to exercise then moan when we fall ill.

@"Pompeyexile"#p46814 Absolutely spot on. Also like with everything it’s hard to know which studies/research/reports are fact and which have been paid for by an organisation with a stake in the discussion. I’ve been vegan almost three years and I’m in the best shape of my life by a country mile. However it takes the same discipline as with any other diet to not reach for the sugary snacks and processed c**p. I could just as easily be overweight on a vegan diet as I could with any other. Interestingly that Tim Spector in the vid above has a company called Zoe which targets gut health. It revolves around the idea that each of us are entirely unique and one diet/food/drink that affects one person doesn’t automatically affect the next in the same way. This seems to contradict the ‘one size fits all’ approach to nutrition and health that we’ve been used to for hundreds of years. All about listening to you body and doing what feels right for you. I think it also changes with age. I would happily consume 6 coffees a day when I was younger without issue. Doing that now would have me truly on edge. Whereas I know plenty of people who drink more than that, or can’t even have 3.

I went vegan, very strictly, Aug/sept 19, near 18st by the end of first lockdown in what march 2020 I was 12:4 I did it to cut out all my processed and junk food. You can buy just as bad vegan stuff now I'm now an omnivore, as in I may have a piece of meat once a month, I eat mainly fish, and lots of veg pasta, cut out milk too, I've always been a big water drinker 4l plus a day I'm not stable at 13st 4 my body seems happy here, General rule is a little bit of what you like does you good, too much of what you like makes you fat 😂😁

Is Coffee healthy ?

Grahamsphillips

So “living healthy for longer” IS my expertise. I’m also a Trustee of the Public Health Collaboration, a UK charity devoted to cardio-metabolic health. Most gerontologists agree that coffee IS healthy for two fundamental reasons. It contains quite a lot of antioxidants (promotes healthy cell metabolism) and a surprising amount of fibre (supports the microbiome).

DOWNSIDES: The food industry hijack EVERYTHING for profit for example Starbucks Caramel Hot Chocolate contains 94g (that’s 24 spoonfuls) of sugar. To give this some context. The gold standard test for type2 diabetes involves stressing your body with a glucose drink containing 75g of glucose. You then observe how the body handles the sugar over 2h. So of you drink Starbucks CARAMEL *(other poisonous makes are avaialsble on your local high street) on any kind of regular basis you are subjecting your system to 1.25 extreme stress tests each time!

Second downside? caffeine has a LONG half life (6-8h) so if you drink much coffee after noon it has significant negative effects on sleep quality

John_Yossarian

Grahamsphillips Thanks a lot for sharing. I am particularly interested in learning more about what type of fibre the coffee has and how it affects the microbiome? I know that people make lots of money nowadays just mentioning “microbiome” and often that is enough. But fibres? Unless they are considered prebiotic I cannot see how they help? Starbucks are notorious of going over board with sugar in their drinks. This is even worse in the USA where you need to be explicit and state “no sugar” (not always being listened to though).
The caffein seems to act differently on different people. In my case rarely do I drink a double espresso even late in the evening with dinner that would prevent me from falling asleep. But I know people that would not have sleep for the whole night.

Grahamsphillips

MWJB The tipping point is around 3-4 coffee drinks a day

chlorox

Grahamsphillips

Sorry what do u mean by tipping point ? Do u mean the point at which optimal gains are received healthwise after which the health benefits drops off and the negative issues begin to rise?

There is also the question of how much is each at 3-4 drinks a day. The traditional single shot of Italian espresso at 7g of ground coffee is quite different from the much higher amounts at which we typically dose today for every cup of espresso.

Grahamsphillips

DavecUK That’s probs a bit too much, esp if you drink later on in the day. It will almost inevitably negatively affect the quality of your sleep

DavecUK

Grahamsphillips In recent years I don’t have coffee after 7pm. So I’ve compromised..

Grahamsphillips

@John_Yossarian we’re very much in the early days of understanding the microbiome - in some ways we’re already too late and the damage is done. Its all about diversity and the average westerner has lost 500 species compared with hunter gatherer tribes. Turns out the microbiome has a HUGE effect on our metabolism, our immune systems and even mental health. By way of context, homo sapiens *(that’s you n me!) have around 22,000 genes. Sound good until you find out that the average earth worm and fruit bat has more than we do. Residing in the darkest recesses of our small intestines live 100s of trillions of bugs. Principally but not exclusively bacteria. More are being discovered all the time. These microbiome (the genetic material contributed by the microbiota (the colony of bugs) out numbers the human genetic material by 100 to 1… or as Tim Spector says “we’re only 1% human”. As for the specifics its VERY individual so there are no simple “one size fits all” answers. There are increasingly accurate microbiome analyses available which can give great insights IF you know how to interpret them. I highly recommend Tim’s first book “Identically Different” and also “The Diet Myth”. His more recent ones? Not so much

John_Yossarian

Grahamsphillips I should have been more clear, I did not mean the gut microbiota, but what people in Personal Care, a business with a turnover of $4-500 B yearly have taken on board and without much munching around made claims that are, mildly speaking, difficult to prove. The gut microbiome has been subject of research for many years and some success stories have proven its significance.
I would be interested in knowing how or whether caffein improves/enthuse the microbiota.

Grahamsphillips

“The caffeine seems to act differently on different people. In my case rarely do I drink a double espresso even late in the evening with dinner that would prevent me from falling asleep. But I know people that would not have sleep for the whole night”

Correct, again its pretty individual. Some people (c10%) can metabolise the caffeine super quick so sleep fine after imbibing. But for most of us, we might APPEAR to sleep fine (ie we’re unconscious) but our sleep architecture is adversely affected so our sleep quality is poor. I can’t overstate how important a decent amount of good quality sleep is for physical and mental health. Just by way of example: one night of poor sleep and your levels of amyloid in the brain rise by 10-15%. High levels of amyloid in the brain are associated with dementia. Poor sleep = increased dementia risk

Grahamsphillips

DavecUK Decaf from say 2pm? Remember probs ⅓ to ½ of the caffeine you’ve drunk during the day is still active by the time you go to bed!

DavecUK

Grahamsphillips dunno, I go to bed about 1:30 am

Grahamsphillips

Grahamsphillips Ouch! That really is late! Do wake up late too? This thing about Larks and Owls is real. Its baked into our genes!

Grahamsphillips

John_Yossarian No one can tell you that. It would very much depend on the current state of your microbiota and probs WHICH coffee and how much you consume. Overall the evidence seems to be “coffee drinkers live longer” but on an individual basis? Well its very unlikely to be harmful…

DavecUK

Grahamsphillips Depends…sometimes I do, sometimes not. Rarely do I not sleep deeply and undisturbed. E.g never need to wake up in middle of night to pee or anything like that.

LMSC

My number of cups have gone down to 3 max during the last couple of months; I don’t feel comfortable if I have had the 4th cup. I always go decaf after 2 pm.

Grahamsphillips

chlorox Yes exactly that - if an apple a day keeps the doctor away (actually it doesn’t but that’s a whole other story!) then are 2 or 3 or 5 or 6 apples even healthier? Obviously not- there’s a tipping point. Andy yes you are right a traditional single espresso is half or less of a double and so on. Even more so coffee is incredibly complex so which bean and how its prepared will have an effect

chlorox

Grahamsphillips

Thats why I have limited myself to mostly 2 coffees a day since that is the equivalent of at least 4 Italian single shot espressos. Or trying to anyway as i am used to 3 a day. On top of that, I am using filter paper for every shot to filter out more of the coffee oils as it is supposed to help lower the lipids that end up in the coffee for the sake of cardiovascular health, though I have come across a study that suggested those coffee oils may be good for health in themselves.

Grahamsphillips

The stuff on lipids is complete bunk! Most things on cholesterol, sat fats and statins are bunk too I’m afraid

DavecUK

Grahamsphillips The stuff on lipids is complete bunk! Most things on cholesterol, sat fats and statins are bunk too I’m afraid

Completely agree, we have the liar “scientist” Ancel Keys to blame for that

chlorox

Grahamsphillips

Thats interestintlg. Do you disagree that hdl and ldl ands triglyceride levels in the blood are useful to indicate the state of cardiovascular health? Also do you believe in the plaque and inflammation theories for what causes cardiovascular disease? What theory or model do you subscribe to if not? Do u also follow an alternative diet like paleo or keto? BTW i don’t have an iron in the fire so to speak in asking these questions as I don’t have any particular position on health issues as long as it is proven to work and so I am genuinely curious what you think on these things.

chlorox

DavecUK

Whatever one may think of his 7 nations study, keys at least literally put his own money where his mouth was - he reportedly built a home on naples, Italy to live there at least part of the time on tbe Mediterranean diet till he passed away at the age of 100…

Grahamsphillips

chlorox No I’m completely with you! Forget total cholesterol (there’s no such thing as “good and bad” cholesterol either!) but there IS such a thing as damaged (oxidised!) lipids! And yes HDL:Trigs is the salient ratio. Yes re inflammation and yes re plaque (but no, its not about LDL)

For more (if interested) click here!

https://www.prolongevity.co.uk/malcolm-kendrick

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