Another pic from top. Also had a look at water tank to see if water is going back to it and it is bone dry. The green stuff on top of the brew boiler I am assuming is a previous leak to maybe when I replaced the temperature probe as although it looks green it is dry .
Well a few things…that tube is a waste of time….it does nothing to protect the motor bearings. I wrote this article after the MK1 Duetto was launched. You may well need to inspect yours…torch and spanner required.
http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/duetto-pump-checks-and-home-made-leake-detector
you should take a video with the top off and the camera on the pump…shot against a blind filter…oh you can leave the pump running for more than 3 seconds after the pressure maxes.
The machine needs a serious clean in side and the bottom below all the components and boilers. A clean machine allows you to see problems faster then if it’s still leaking, fix the leaks, esp on top of the brew boiler.
Listened to your great advice and started to clean it.
Looks much better, now you can see where leaks are coming from. I’d double check the hardness of your water.
Pump or motor sounds noisy, split pump from motor and check for leaking.
Thank you Davec. I have never removed a pump before so can I check the procedure please.
Is the above right? Thanks
I have found this link which seems to explain which nuts to loosen :https://clivecoffee.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001221713-Izzo-Duetto-Pump-Replacement
The more I think about it the more I don’t think the pump was ever this noisy, so I am starting to think along reason 4 you mentioned earlier
DavecUK Pump struggles to make pressure (damaged/worn vanes, motor capacitor)
This is a great learning curve. I really appreciate you passing your knowledge on.
Oh well. I think its game over. I loosened off the pump and I think water has been going into the motor. Does that mean a new motor and pump would be needed? The odd thing is it works still ok? Is the loud noise coming from the motor rather than the pump? I am no expert and far from the inspirational knowledge of Dave C and others, but surely is that not a stupid design to put a pump over a motor that way or am I way too ignorant to see the merit?
coffeealex but surely is that not a stupid design to put a pump over a motor that way or am I way too ignorant to see the merit?
I’m not sure how else you would connect the pump rotor to the motor’s axle. I mean, yes, there are belt/chain and gear drives, but they take up space (and cost) and there is no requirement for them if you can get the motor’s speed and torque to match the pump’s requirements.
From your first photo, I thought you had snapped the axle, but in the others it simply seems full of scale. I suspect that the noise (and possibly fall in pressure) is because some bearing is jammed by rust and/or scale as a seal has failed. If they are standard size bearings and the seat has been designed for replacement, it’s not game over at all - cheap and relatively easy to replace… although yours may be not as easy, given the amount of scaling.
Thanks, I was thinking more could they not have put and motor sideways on so that if it leaks it goes not directly into the motor or some flexible waterproof seal at that end to protect the motor?
I might be talking absolute rubbish as a novice, but my theory is that the vanes in the pump have gone which has led to a drop in pressure and the leaks as the vanes stop water escaping and thus maintain pressure. The noise is a result of water affecting the bearings in the motor with scale and or rust causing friction and an increase in noise. Love to hear what DaveC and others think
coffeealex Unfortunately it’s exactly as expected. When I did the top level design for the MK1 Duetto, they didn’t do everything I asked for. The pump couldn’t be mounted horizontally, there wasn’t room
I recommended strongly the motor was caged with the pump at the bottom not the top to prevent exactly this problem, then the weep hole would have drained the water before it damaged the motor bearing. I even did them a detailed drawing, but Izzo refused to do this stating I was wrong and it wouldn’t be a problem….so I wrote the Wiki article I referred you to. I think finally in the MK4 they caged the pump motor combo and flipped it upside down.
Quick mill also did an upright motor pump config, but listened and had the motor at the top and the pump below as I specified for the Verona model. I also had them obtain a document from fluid-o-tech approving the pump in that configuration, as the only previous approval was for a Horizontal mount.
Run the motor without the pump head on and see how it sounds….if it’s noisy, replace it. If it’s not noisy, clean it up, whack a bit of Molykote around the spindle and hope for the best. The pump definitely requires replacement.
If after putting a new pump in the motor is noisy under load, then your going to have to replace it.
coffeealex The motor has an axle that rotates. That cannot be in any other place than in the centre of the motor ('s rotor). The pump also has an axle that rotates, and cannot be in any other place than in the centre of the pump ('s impeller). If you don’t align (and mechanically connect) the two axles, you need to have another way of transmitting motion from one to the other… i.e. a drive of some sort. Yes, you could place the motor above the pump, but that creates all sort of other issues with heat management.
At a minimum, there is a seal around the pump’s axle. That has probably failed because of scaling (and they are meant to be replaced regularly - they wear out even if there is no scale). There may be more than one, and/or there may be additional seals on the motor’s axle.
EDIT - after having seen DaveC’s comment, I understand better what you meant; disregard this post!
Thank you for all your help. I learned a lot from it. Just one final question: to run the motor with the pump disconnected from the rotating spindle do i just turn the brew lever as if i was extracting coffee?
I will also start some new discussions as I am most likely going to buy a new machine as have been saving up for this day. I have got down to a profitec 700 or lelit bianca. most importantly I will also try to understand if I can use osmio zero for the new machine as this experience has made me realise that the number i criteria for a reliable machine is good water. I would put that at number i priority
coffeealex yeah run motor without pump connected, so you can hear the motor bearing…it’s probably shot, but most of the noise could be coming from the pump. You can lift the brew lever to start the motor…it should be almost silent.
Osmio Zero is a fine move because as you rightly say, good water gives great reliability from 98% of problems usually caused by water. The Duetto pump motor orientation always irritated me, especially as they wouldn’t listen. I designed it a long long time ago now (probably 17 years ago) and they basically worked of that old design with only slight incremental improvements. in it’s day it was ahead of the game…17 years on, not so much. I did help Lelit with quite a bit of stuff as well….so I know it’s a good machine. I had the Version 3 Bianca for about a year before it was released…nice machine especially the hi/lo flow ideas.
The black one they have looks good, but I didn’t like it when I saw it back in may, with the lighter coloured wood…I advised them to use the darker walnut with it……so hopefully they will either offer that as an option or make the standard a darker walnut.
DavecUK Thank you. I have had the izzo for some time and although I may end up cleaning the motor and replacing the pump I will sell it advising anyone what I have done. Believe its always good to be honest. I would not keep it as even if I got a new motor and pump this does not change the overall design flaw. They definitely should have listened to your advice as I think you were way ahead of the game at the time. So now looking at Osmio zero and lelit v3. Cannot grumble at the Izzo though as has delivered great shots and enabled me to learn some servicing skills that hopefully are transferable to the Lelit
coffeealex For sure, you will have learned loads and can enjoy the challenges of profiling and a more modern machine. I still have my Duetto serial number 0001, but I have not used it for a very long time…still looks new. I keep it for sentimental reasons.
coffeealex I should have mentioned, if the pump motor is screwed (pump deffo is), you could always replace it with a Vibration pump…save a lot of money and if you sell it, as it’s an old machine, probably won’t affect the price that much.
Managed to get round to testing the motor without pump attached. Does that sound noisy to you? In other words if I change the pump is it going do you think to still sound noisy and have the low pressure problem? Thanks. It sounds noisy to me but then this is the first time I have heard one, so your expert opinion is really appreciated
coffeealex Yup, that’s definitely buggered, they should be a near silent hum.
I’d buy this damm quick as they only have one left and it’s not too expensive (£84)….you need to get a pump while you are at it as well. You need the small slimline motor. Just confirm suitability for the duetto…because you will have to mount it upright and you need to check the end bracketing is compatible. Also make sure they sell you a pump that fits that motor and again that your pump fittings (high pressure pipe) will fit.
DavecUK Thank you Dave. Really appreciate your expert input. i will check with BB in the morning and hopefully get the parts I need and at the same time buy the Lelit. The end game is hopefully to repair then sell the izzo. Should get a reasonable sum for it( hopefully ) if I mention a new pump and motor fitted. Also recently serviced the e61 bits. I am quite confident doing the pump. Is replacing the motor very tricky?
coffeealex Is replacing the motor very tricky?
Can’t remember exactly, depends, if the mounts they use can fit on the new motor then it’s easy…otherwise you may have to drill new holes ion the mounts…also any rubbers used must not be perished or the motor will buss against the frame. In the early models they didn’t use proper motor mounts, so you may have to by some or as a last resort squishy washers….You would get the mounts from an online hardware shop, shore 60 would be about right. They are called anti vibration bobbin mounts.
DavecUK Thank you
