I recently took delivery of a bottomless PF and decided to try out this weekend. Yesterday was my first try with it.

Grinding straight into the PF (with a funnel on), WDT, tamp, and then lock in. While I got not spurts, I did get 2 clear small areas where the water was clearly just avoiding.

Today I ground straight into PF like yesterday, but no WDT and just gave the PF a shake around to even out the bed, then tamp, and lock in. Though not perfect, it was a considerable improvement over yesterday where there were no obvious areas that the water was avoiding.

Taste wise, definitely better today.

Thoughts?

    DrForinor - I find a lot is dependent on the coffee. I WDT all the time, and sometimes think… but what if I don’t…. And surprisingly, it works well. And then, at times, it’s horrifying. So I stick with WDT….

    Personally, my goal in life is to remove unnecessary steps from processed and routines. If you don’t need WDT… then don’t do it. 👍

        MediumRoastSteam That’s honestly what I was thinking. I am trying to streamline the process as much as possible and if that means I can skip a step (a variable) then I’d prefer to do that.

          Learn to tap instead if you find WDT isn’t working. I tried it and it’s not for me, too much faff and inconsistency if you don’t do it thoroughly enough. Saw no real improvement for meticulous wdt vs tapping even if the shot looked marginally better for a second as it came together. Tapping is quick, so you lose less heat from the portafilter and basket, and does a good enough job to prevent channeling.

            Rob1 In regards to tapping, if I shake the PF to even the beds, and then tamp without tapping, how does that compare to shake, tap then tamp?

              No idea, I’d imagine shaking can compact the grinds a bit more.

              On paper everything about WDT should improve things but for whatever reason I also just seem to get consistently better results from a quick tap on the side to level and tamp.

              I’ve tried WDT a few times and don’t notice really any improvement at all in what ends up in the cup.

                Ernie1 I don’t bother with WDT once the coffee is in the PF, just a few bumps with the heel of my hand to level. I do use a chopstick to give grinds a stir in the Niche cup, but that’s mainly to kill the static completely.

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                    DavecUK

                    That’s a great idea! I use the Niche cup on the Mazzer as it’s such a brilliant design but didn’t think to take care of the odd bit of static before tipping it into the PF.

                      I always wdt with light roasts, especially with very light filter roasts. I think once you move to medium roasts and darker things like wdt aren’t really effective.

                      It also depends on the grinder you have, some don’t need much work at all. The niche works well with just some taps, again unless the roasts are very light.

                      Just finding a technique that provides consistent results is the main thing, if you don’t need wdt don’t use it. Add more things when you need to, but simplify things as much as you can

                      Coffee Roaster. Home: Sage Dual Boiler, Niche Zero, Ode v2 (SSP), 1zpresso ZP6 Work: Eagle One Prima EXP, mahlkonig e80s, Mazzer Philos and lots more

                      I know wtd needle size can make a difference

                      Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                      tompoland These specific ones I would say a light to medium, the same beans both times with and without WDT.

                          I WDT all the time, but with only five (5) needles of 0.35mm diameter. I’ve tried 0.25 and 0.3 and find that the needles bend together and move the grounds to much. 0.40 also moves the grounds too much. Too many needles (more than 6) moves the grounds too much. Five 0.35mm needles is perfect for me.

                          I did try NO WDT, with mixed results. As they say, if its not broken …

                          I’ve since added a top screen (metal not paper). Whereas I had periodic channeling, I now have none. This allows me to focus on other things.

                          I do however wonder what the impact would be of no WDT, but with the screen. However my WDT works and I have other things to work on.

                          Now working to determine best top screen thickness. I have a thick Normcore screen, which removes headroom, which helps avoid sloppy pucks. I preheat the screen with steam, to avoid thermal loss.

                          Just received a thin Shades of Coffee screen. Tried it once and saw abit of puck sloppiness, with 15g medium-dark coffee in a 15g IMS basket. So a thin screen would allow 16g or even 17g in a 15g basket, and no sloppiness, if I chose to go that route.

                          A thicker screen results in no sloppiness, but limits the dose to 15g in a 15g basket. Maybe 16g at most.

                          Question: What’s the right amount of headroom? Is the “nickle test” still true or passe? Or does the right amount of headroom result from a basket loaded to + or - 10% of basket rating, with neither sloppiness or the puck sticking to the shower screen? Or?

                          Note: My pucks never stick to the shower screen anymore, now that I use a top puck screen.

                            JHCCoffee Note: My pucks never stick to the shower screen anymore, now that I use a top puck screen.

                            I’m convinced this is because the screen prevents a vacuum forming, so the pucks don’t stick. Over the years I have observed the pucks falling off immediately the lever is lifted far enough to only open the E61 the vent valve (very briefly), but not run the pump. The only logical conclusion is the vacuum holding the puck up has broken.

                            It’s made me wonder if a quick extra vent solenoid activation a few seconds after venting on non E61 machines would drop the puck back into the basket?

                            (note to self to talk to Lelit) @MediumRoastSteam, is this something you can test if you get a stuck puck…whip the PF out and rapidly toggle the pump switch just enough to open/close the vent valve. It would then confirm whether the strategy might work programmatically.

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                                DrForinor I’ve tested rest duration a lot. A caveat: most people don’t like it and will disagree with my conclusions but then again, most of them won’t have tested day after day like I have.

                                Light roasted beans are bit peak flavor after 30 days post roast.

                                With many batches of City roasts (Medium/Light) they have hit peak at 28 days or thereabouts.

                                Which means that assuming adequate storage, most people are finishing a batch of beans when they are just starting to hit peak flavor.

                                    JHCCoffee I did try NO WDT, with mixed results.

                                    That’s me too: I use WDT because I crave consistency.

                                      DavecUK note to self to talk to Lelit) @MediumRoastSteam, is this something you can test if you get a stuck puck…whip the PF out and rapidly toggle the pump switch just enough to open/close the vent valve. It would then confirm whether the strategy might work programmatically.

                                      We tested this Dave a while back, between our back and forth conversations at the time. Unfortunately, it’s not a straight forward answer: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

                                      He stuck pucks don’t bother me anymore. With practice of unlocking the PF (a bit of downward pressure and a wiggle at the end) I now hardly get a stuck puck.