I recently took delivery of a bottomless PF and decided to try out this weekend. Yesterday was my first try with it. Grinding straight into the PF (with a funnel on), WDT, tamp, and then lock in. While I got not spurts, I did get 2 clear small areas where the water was clearly just avoiding. Today I ground straight into PF like yesterday, but no WDT and just gave the PF a shake around to even out the bed, then tamp, and lock in. Though not perfect, it was a considerable improvement over yesterday where there were no obvious areas that the water was avoiding. Taste wise, definitely better today. Thoughts?

@"DrForinor"#p38322 - I find a lot is dependent on the coffee. I WDT all the time, and sometimes think… but what if I don’t…. And surprisingly, it works well. And then, at times, it’s horrifying. So I stick with WDT…. Personally, my goal in life is to remove unnecessary steps from processed and routines. If you don’t need WDT… then don’t do it. 👍

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p38324 That's honestly what I was thinking. I am trying to streamline the process as much as possible and if that means I can skip a step (a variable) then I'd prefer to do that.

Learn to tap instead if you find WDT isn't working. I tried it and it's not for me, too much faff and inconsistency if you don't do it thoroughly enough. Saw no real improvement for meticulous wdt vs tapping even if the shot looked marginally better for a second as it came together. Tapping is quick, so you lose less heat from the portafilter and basket, and does a good enough job to prevent channeling.

Better result without WDT?

MediumRoastSteam

Rob1 Tapping is quick

do you mean distribution by tapping?

https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/how-to-distribute-by-tapping/

DrForinor

Rob1 In regards to tapping, if I shake the PF to even the beds, and then tamp without tapping, how does that compare to shake, tap then tamp?

Rob1

No idea, I’d imagine shaking can compact the grinds a bit more.

Ernie1

On paper everything about WDT should improve things but for whatever reason I also just seem to get consistently better results from a quick tap on the side to level and tamp.

I’ve tried WDT a few times and don’t notice really any improvement at all in what ends up in the cup.

DavecUK

Ernie1 I don’t bother with WDT once the coffee is in the PF, just a few bumps with the heel of my hand to level. I do use a chopstick to give grinds a stir in the Niche cup, but that’s mainly to kill the static completely.

Ernie1

DavecUK

That’s a great idea! I use the Niche cup on the Mazzer as it’s such a brilliant design but didn’t think to take care of the odd bit of static before tipping it into the PF.

DavecUK

Chopstic is perfect, because you can wipe around the sides of the cup.

InfamousTuba

I always wdt with light roasts, especially with very light filter roasts. I think once you move to medium roasts and darker things like wdt aren’t really effective.

It also depends on the grinder you have, some don’t need much work at all. The niche works well with just some taps, again unless the roasts are very light.

Just finding a technique that provides consistent results is the main thing, if you don’t need wdt don’t use it. Add more things when you need to, but simplify things as much as you can

Cuprajake

I know wtd needle size can make a difference

tompoland

DrForinor what is the roast level of the beans e.g. light, medium, dark?

DrForinor

tompoland These specific ones I would say a light to medium, the same beans both times with and without WDT.

tompoland

DrForinor I’ve tested rest duration a lot. A caveat: most people don’t like it and will disagree with my conclusions but then again, most of them won’t have tested day after day like I have.

Light roasted beans are bit peak flavor after 30 days post roast.

With many batches of City roasts (Medium/Light) they have hit peak at 28 days or thereabouts.

Which means that assuming adequate storage, most people are finishing a batch of beans when they are just starting to hit peak flavor.

JHCCoffee

I WDT all the time, but with only five (5) needles of 0.35mm diameter. I’ve tried 0.25 and 0.3 and find that the needles bend together and move the grounds to much. 0.40 also moves the grounds too much. Too many needles (more than 6) moves the grounds too much. Five 0.35mm needles is perfect for me.

I did try NO WDT, with mixed results. As they say, if its not broken …

I’ve since added a top screen (metal not paper). Whereas I had periodic channeling, I now have none. This allows me to focus on other things.

I do however wonder what the impact would be of no WDT, but with the screen. However my WDT works and I have other things to work on.

Now working to determine best top screen thickness. I have a thick Normcore screen, which removes headroom, which helps avoid sloppy pucks. I preheat the screen with steam, to avoid thermal loss.

Just received a thin Shades of Coffee screen. Tried it once and saw abit of puck sloppiness, with 15g medium-dark coffee in a 15g IMS basket. So a thin screen would allow 16g or even 17g in a 15g basket, and no sloppiness, if I chose to go that route.

A thicker screen results in no sloppiness, but limits the dose to 15g in a 15g basket. Maybe 16g at most.

Question: What’s the right amount of headroom? Is the “nickle test” still true or passe? Or does the right amount of headroom result from a basket loaded to + or - 10% of basket rating, with neither sloppiness or the puck sticking to the shower screen? Or?

Note: My pucks never stick to the shower screen anymore, now that I use a top puck screen.

DavecUK

JHCCoffee Note: My pucks never stick to the shower screen anymore, now that I use a top puck screen.

I’m convinced this is because the screen prevents a vacuum forming, so the pucks don’t stick. Over the years I have observed the pucks falling off immediately the lever is lifted far enough to only open the E61 the vent valve (very briefly), but not run the pump. The only logical conclusion is the vacuum holding the puck up has broken.

It’s made me wonder if a quick extra vent solenoid activation a few seconds after venting on non E61 machines would drop the puck back into the basket?

(note to self to talk to Lelit) @MediumRoastSteam, is this something you can test if you get a stuck puck…whip the PF out and rapidly toggle the pump switch just enough to open/close the vent valve. It would then confirm whether the strategy might work programmatically.

tompoland

JHCCoffee I did try NO WDT, with mixed results.

That’s me too: I use WDT because I crave consistency.

Rob1

JHCCoffee Question: What’s the right amount of headroom? Is the “nickle test” still true or passe? Or does the right amount of headroom result from a basket loaded to + or - 10% of basket rating, with neither sloppiness or the puck sticking to the shower screen? Or?

The ideal fill height is related to shot quality, not whether or not pucks stick to the shower screen or knock out sloppy. You’re making espresso not pucks. A sloppy puck or one that is stuck to the shower screen doesn’t tell you anything about the shot.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK note to self to talk to Lelit) @MediumRoastSteam, is this something you can test if you get a stuck puck…whip the PF out and rapidly toggle the pump switch just enough to open/close the vent valve. It would then confirm whether the strategy might work programmatically.

We tested this Dave a while back, between our back and forth conversations at the time. Unfortunately, it’s not a straight forward answer: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

He stuck pucks don’t bother me anymore. With practice of unlocking the PF (a bit of downward pressure and a wiggle at the end) I now hardly get a stuck puck.

DrForinor

tompoland I’ve tested rest duration a lot. A caveat: most people don’t like it and will disagree with my conclusions but then again, most of them won’t have tested day after day like I have.

Light roasted beans are bit peak flavor after 30 days post roast.

With many batches of City roasts (Medium/Light) they have hit peak at 28 days or thereabouts.

It’s funny you come to this conclusion.

Both my sister and I have tested resting periods fairly extensively and that was our result also!! We assumed it was because we were using a bean to cup that it was different.

Doram

tompoland DrForinor I’ve tested rest duration a lot. A caveat: most people don’t like it and will disagree with my conclusions but then again, most of them won’t have tested day after day like I have.

Light roasted beans are bit peak flavor after 30 days post roast.

I tend to use what I consider to be medium roasts, and find that the coffee starts to peak at around 14 days, so not surprised that light roasts take longer. For me the golden window tends to be from ~day 14 until I finish the batch, so probably days 14-30. I usually don’t have anything left beyond that, so don’t know what happens after, but during that window I don’t feel any deterioration (I store the beans in vacuvin containers and pump the air out). When I see people say they start drinking on day 5 (considering that by day 14 the coffee could be gone), I think that they don’t know what they are missing.

(But this is a thread about wdt, so not the best place to discuss resting times. :))

Rob1

Regardless of when the flavor peaks I’ve found it takes a very long time for the coffee to actually go rancid. I ran several batches through the Amazon and drank through a few kilos over a period of months. Flavour peaks were found on immediately opening the back after resting for a week, but then the next day it wasn’t ready to drink. The next peak came probably two-three weeks later and then another after 4 weeks. Same again for about 6/7 weeks. The reason for these different peaks was I found different flavours coming through and rising to dominance at different times, and some seeming to appear from out of nowhere as they were undetectable previously. Depending on the flavours you want you might interpret the peak differently. I can’t remember exactly how it was but I’m fairly confident floral notes were the first to go. Fruit became prominent after around 4 weeks and then tannins (black tea notes) and chocolate from 6/7 weeks with fruit that slowly died down over the next month or so. Floral notes then seemed to magically reappear but that would be a freshly opened bag. I was drinking coffee roasted at the start of August into December and was probably happiest with the complexity of flavour around October-November.