Saturation and grind type

capuchin

I’m reading some guides that mention presaturation of the shot for 20 seconds or so before brewing (as I understand it essentially filling the puck without the pressure) and am wondering if the technique changes dependent on if you’re using bimodal/conical grounds or flat/consistent grounds. [feel free to correct]

So from what I’ve read a conical is better because it allows the water to seep and better saturate the smaller particles, and a flat is better because it has a consistent particle size, so there wont be inconsistencies in the coffee due to different particle size/extraction levels.

If you’re saturating your grounds without pressure does this amplify the effect of the difference between flat and conical? For example, if I’m using saturation until I get a gram in the cup and then ramping up pressure, is this essentially giving me a hybrid pourover/espresso shot, as espresso? (And flat burrs are better for clarity in pourover?)

Therefore does it follow that if you are using long saturation techniques or post brew saturation, that flat burrs will taste better? Or does the contact time under pressure not make a difference?

Cuprajake

Depends on the type of coffee

capuchin

Cuprajake sure it does, but at the heart you still have 2 different grind distribution types, and the more of the contact time that they aren’t under pressure, this may mean the more unevenness in extraction?

I’ve not tried any super light roasts yet but from the videos I’ve watched you can lower the pressure too on those to slow the extraction (not gravity low like a pourover but still) and vice versa for a dark roast.

I’m trying to work out the relationship between pressure and grind type. Does conical work better at higher pressure in general, and if so, if you’re saturating at low pressure for longer, is flat superior?

Cuprajake

Umm hard to say.

I was under the impression long slow fill shots gave uneven extraction.

Remember John at decent saying if you have a slow 40s fill till first drip, the top has been extracting for 40s while the bottom just 1 or along those lines. I’ll try find the vid.

Personally I think once you start moving away from traditional espresso making and modified shots etc the lines blurr.

@DenisS had great success with the niche and light roasts on his lever, he’s also had a decent and multiple ‘end game’ grinders, so I bow to his knowledge and tag him again 😂 @DenisS

DenisS

When pulling I always liked a bit faster shots even if I tried a lot slayer type shots, bloom shots (not only on decent, I also owned 3 machines with ito prior to decent, basically it does the same thing as the decent you build profiles based on flow or pressure) I also owned 3 way valve modded gaggias that you add a needle valve on one circuit of the 3 way and you preinfuse with the needle valve set at low flow and then comute the valve to the normal pump flow (basically a cheap slayer copy-cat).

When pulling longer shots (time wise) I would get some sweetness sometimes, more texture? but the high notes, acidity, florals always down. It might have to do with the high temps killing the flavors if you go for too long. Maybe there is a relation between the paragon/frozen balls espresso and the faster pulling shots like 25-27 sec max (instead of 45-60sec max).

I always found that if managed to extract enough the 22-25 sec shots always better/more vivid/more complex, acidic and vibrant compared to the long 45 sec. The long shots made sense for me only with much more developed beans. There is no complexity, acidity, florals in a med-dark roast, and there is little to none in city roasts too. So maybe for those you might want the slower timed shots.

Saka was good in 20g in -25-28 g out in 35-45 sec, while Gardelli filter roast was horrible in 45 sec (1-2 ratio) but much better in 27 sec.

DenisS

Grind type has impact on taste, but it’s not like you would describe it as 25 vs 45 sec shots. We are talking here a few seconds ±.

For big burrs that extract much/fast you want to extract fast (15-20 sec) i’m talking here about SSP 98mm HU burrs for espresso. shots at 30 sec are becoming dark/mudded/nutty/bitter. for 15-20 sec shot 1-2 ratio you already are at 23-25% ey in a simple shot, 3-5 sec pi/12-15 sec brew time=total 15-20sec.

For burrs like Niche you need a tiny bit more time, as 15-20 sec wont do it, you aim for 25-30 sec for 1-2 ratio. This on a evo leva will give you 22-24% EY with a different tasting experience.

Other burrs like df64, ssp hu, mazzer’s stock need a bit less time than Niche to extract, as we already know that in general flat burrs grind much finer than conicals (i’m talking here when you dial in a shot let’s say 1-2 ratio in 25 sec on a niche vs a flat (mazzer burr) the mazzer burr grind will feel and be much finer and uniform vs the boulders looking on the niche.

So in the end we are talking about a 5-10 sec difference between the extraction times from burr to burr. The long shot times if you refer to those are for as I said darker developed beans (40-60 sec shot for ristretto out of a super dark oily roast). If you can pull a turbo on a dark oily roast and can drink it i’ll pay you money.