I’ve never been able to pour an espresso shot that is sufficiently: sweet, full flavoured but with significant complexities/nuances, very full bodied (which I presume would be very risttetto), all with good/lingering (persistent) after taste. A shot that I would enjoy without milk. I can pour very good-tasting milk drinks, but not straight shots. I've tried very short (very ristretto) ratios, but the shots were very one dimensional. I welcome any suggestions to achieve the above, with my Niche Zero, Lelit Elizabeth and decaf beans.

It'll be the decaf, harder to extract are they not? I've never had great success with them, But you need to start with the right bean to get what you need.

I agree with Jake, I would struggle to get something really great from a decaf bean. I find a good decaf is passable in milk, but very difficult to get something great from them as espresso. If you’re trying to reduce your caffeine intake and don’t want to go to a fully caffeinated roast, why not start with a 50:50 blend of decaf and caffeinated coffee? It won’t be quite as forgiving as a fully caffeinated cup, but it should give you a little more to work with.

@"JHCCoffee"#p48544 There isn’t really any difference between normal vs decaf coffee except we grind on the finer side. Every other parameter is constant. > @"JHCCoffee"#p48544 significant complexities/nuances, very full bodied I see these on the roasters’ descriptions. The former is when I often see it on honey or anaerobic or light/medium light as the coffee is on the fruiter side, whereas the full bodied is more likely medium dark nutty and chocolate. I’m not even sure we can get both end of the beans at the same time. I aim to enjoy the coffee as they meant to be and see if the cup comes closer to the notes on the bag. It’s also a taste preference, is it not? For example, I often hesitate to recommend beans for these reasons. For example, I loved Foundry’s decaf that had the highest score of 87.75 that I had never seen so far. I don’t think it went well with @"dfk41"#4. He also drinks decaf.

Decaf definitely has a much shorter usable/shelf life for espresso... what I've used in the past (commercially) it'd hit a peak in flavor/texture around day 3-4 post roast and by day 8 be totally void. Regardless of storage, etc. it just loses what it has to offer in half the time of typical standard coffees used for the same purpose.

@"JonWoo187"#p48559 Afraid that I do not agree with you at all! If you store coffee correctly, anything will last 6 weeks or more. Darker roasted beans do take longer to become ready but also last longer

> @"JHCCoffee"#p48544 sweet, full flavoured but with significant complexities/nuances, very full bodied You have 3 requirements, pick two ☺️ Complexity & nuance (clarity? If the coffee itself is capable) is more easily achieved at higher extractions and more dilute (longer ratio) shots.

If it isn’t a dark roast, you might have some luck with a bloom. Saturate the puck quickly, then stop the flow for 10 to 30 seconds, then ramp up pressure to pull the shot.

@"dfk41"#p48562 Actually the darker the roast the earlier it mellows out and decaf definitely fades at a faster rate.

> @"LMSC"#p48554 There isn’t really any difference between normal vs decaf coffee except we grind on the finer side. Every other parameter is constant. I beg to differ on this one. They way caffeine is taken out (mainly extraction) means that anything that have similar solubility, e.g. essential oils, some fatty acids, etc., that are contributing to the "sweetness" of the shot are gone with the caffeine, whence the decaf beans are kind of depleted. I suppose this is the price that one pays when drinking decaf. I personally am still going for full bodied (all the caffeine) coffee beans, but I am curious to try the decaf route.

How to pour a sweet, very full bodied espresso shot

LMSC

John_Yossarian Fair enough as I do understand the decaf process.

But, I haven’t seen the need to change any of my brew parameters except the grind size.

Anything that isn’t meant to be there, isn’t there. I aim to enjoy the decaf as they are!

My comment was about the brew regime and not what’s in or otherwise in the decaf.

John_Yossarian

@LMSC As long as you enjoy it, is what matters in the end.

LMSC

John_Yossarian Exactly!

LMSC

It stuck with me as soon as I tried it 2.5 years ago. The main intent in our case is avoiding normal coffee after 2 pm as it does mess up with our sleep pattern, though. :-)

OldGregg

Going to have to lean into the camp of decaf being the parameter that’s affecting the taste. Don’t get me wrong, I have had some great decafs…but that’s just it… they were great FOR being a decaf, not spectacular against their less processed counterparts. Looking through my notes these two stuck out, but they are in the states.

https://birdrockcoffee.com/chiapas-decaf/

https://sweetbloomcoffee.com/product/decaf-colombia/

MWJB

If the requirement is decaf, the perceived merits of full-caf are pretty moot.

There certainly are tasty, sweet decafs out there, though definitely much less choice in beans compared to full-caf, but the good decafs I have had have not been below average compared to typical, full-caf offerings.

Ultimately, we still steer the flavour balance & strength the same way, caffeine or no.

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam try removing the disk from the Niche. You’ll get more full-bodied shots, but will lose out one clarity. Give it a go.

Will give it a try. Just curious. Why did Niche add in the disk and how does it affect the grind? It obviously grinds slower with less popcorning, but what is the impact on the grind, and thereby the taste of the shot.

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee - My personal experience and findings after experimentation was that the disk gives marginally more clarity, at the cost of texture and mouthfeel.

I don’t know the exact mechanics and what happens to the particles of coffee when the disk is used or not, but, my understanding is that as the disk controls the flow of beans feeding into the burrs, it produces a more uniform grind than if one did not have the burrs. But that’s just me regurgitating what I’ve read in the past. I don’t own a microscope of have any interest in finding out :-)

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam try removing the disk from the Niche. You’ll get more full-bodied shots, but will lose out one clarity. Give it a go.

Rob1

JHCCoffee

Find a coffee that offers what you want and extract it properly.

Not all will offer complexity, not all will offer full body. With your equipment, you can force a full-bodied shot with a low ratio but that will mean a low extraction and lack of complexity, and probably also a lack of clarity.

If it’s sweetness, complexity, and nuance you want then use a longer ratio. You’ll probably want a roast on the lighter-medium end of the spectrum too. If you want body then get a coffee from an origin known for it e.g Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador or Asian coffees.

drdre89

It’s the decaf beans that’s the problem. I was on decaf for months and found it very hard to hit that sweet spot. It’s alot harder to dial in and get good flavour.

I’ve gone back to regular medium to darker roast caffeinated beans and it’s been easy to get that nice sweet rich chocolatey flavour in both espresso and milk drinks.

Remember the darker the roast the less caffeine is in the bean. So I would recommend to try a darker roast caffeinated bean if you want less caffeine.

MediumRoastSteam

drdre89 Remember the darker the roast the less caffeine is in the bean

I didn’t know this. 👍

Rob1

MediumRoastSteam because it isn’t true.

dfk41

The problem with decaf, is normally down to poor execution by the roaster. So many think, that as it is considered the poor relation, all they need to do is roast the tits off it……I have drunk decaf on and off for many years now. In that time there has been the odd good one, lots of bang average and even more total shite!!

LMSC

I think the decaf should be judged on its’ own merit and comparing it with the normal beans can colour the judgement.

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