MediumRoastSteam

I don’t disagree, but it’s not as simple as what you suggest for the reasons we’ve both articulated. Trial and error is absolutely part of the journey, but I’m trying to find a system or formula I can rely on. Maybe I’m being unrealistic as I recognise what you’re saying and kind of expected that type of response.

I’m grateful for you taking the time to reply none the less.

    Cuprajake

    Currently trying this one, but I’ve also got a bag of their Halloween blend, which they no longer sell. I tend to go for smooth, chocolate, nutty, Brazilian types of coffee, but also try Columbian and similar regional coffees.

    https://coffeelink.com/shop/coffee/bags/brazil-serra-negra/?_gl=1\*9m8zy2\*_up\*MQ..&gclid=Cj0KCQiA57G5BhDUARIsACgCYny9ejMFYba0nFxVFB-jG2KCLqzC3i_q8S1v8V7lRsMFlCdqwuF0d-kaArl8EALw_wcB

      BigTTony but I’m trying to find a system or formula I can rely on.

      To make myself clear: What I am saying here is that you know what you like - so you can find what you like (and subsequently stick to what you like) - People will suggest what works for them, but it might not necessarily work for you. There are so many variables. For instance, you told us the machine you have (Bianca), but you never told us your grinder, or the type of coffee you enjoy, and whether it’s milk based, or pure, or with added water, etc, etc, etc. :-) - In reading between the lines, you said you enjoy a longer drink by potentially over-extracting your shot. Most poeple here would tend to disagree that’s the right thing to do. Others will swear blind by turbo shots, which seems what you might be trying to achieve here.

        ah, ok, if more traditional id pull a 2:1 and put it in water, vs over extracting too much. then you can control your extractions

        if a v3 use the pump features and have the paddle fully open, 25-35 seconds from lifiting the lever

        Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

          MediumRoastSteam

          Apologies, I wasn’t being critical of your initial response. You mention that most would disagree with my approach to over extract, which is exactly to my point ie what would they suggest in my circumstances.

          My preferred drink would be a strong milk based coffee, so if I go to a chain coffee shop I tend to ask for large latte with extra shot. I sometime opt for oat milk and when I’m at home I’ll often have a flat white as I like to avoid the extra calories that come with too many lattes!

          My grinder is a niche zero and I either use waitrose Lockhils water or tesco ashbeck.

          I’m more than willing to try new methods and don’t mind the trial and error approach. To be explicit, I’m asking for suggestions on specific methods to go away and trial.

            Cuprajake

            Thanks Jake, just to clarify though - how much pre infusion are you suggesting? If I’m reading you right, you’re saying 25 to 35 seconds total time, including pre infusion, which suggests a short pre infusion of say 5 seconds to allow steady extraction of coffee over the remaining ~30 seconds. How much coffee (in grammes) do you expect from that approach?

            • MWJB replied to this.

              BigTTony I’m not sure that it is helpful to differentiate preinfusion time from total shot time.

              Long preinfusions tend to lead to faster running shots, post preinfusion, at the same grind size.

              A puck holds roughly its own weight in water, so if you end up with a 1:2 shot in 30s, you have introduced 3x the water weight to the puck in order to get that 1:2 shot out, flow started before you saw the first drops,

                MWJB

                Thanks for the input and this is why I’m maybe over analysing everything. In simple terms, I can’t work out how to pull the best shot. ie whether to include or exclude things like pre infusion and how it affects the ratios.

                Do you suggest just looking at the whole process as one sequence of events? In that approach, the result would be to aim for 44g of coffee in 44 seconds if I’m understanding you correctly. But pre infusion currently takes a total of 12 seconds (including the pause) so it would mean coffee is extracted over a period of ~32 seconds which kind of works to what Jake was suggesting.

                • MWJB replied to this.

                  BigTTony The coffee is being extracted over longer than 32 seconds, because the first drips are already coffee extract, they took several seconds to get there & travelled the depth of the puck.

                  I’m not sure why 44g in 44s is a target. If you want 44g out, that’s great, but adjust grind to optimise the taste and live with whatever time gives you your preferred flavour balance. +/-3s of shot time can be considered ‘the same’ as time is a knock on effect of grind change, rather than the primary driver of extraction (grind size).

                  Maybe pick a preinfusion time and stick to it.

                  If you like larger drinks and you feel that more shots than you would like are on the sour side, try 1:2.5, or a little longer.

                    low flow mode for 10s then full power to the end of the shot,

                    17-18g in 30-40g out in roughly 30s from lifting the lever

                    Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                      MWJB

                      I can see your point re coffee extraction.

                      The 44g over 44 seconds is the 2:1 ratio based on 22g dose, which is my standard go to coffee dose. I don’t specifically want 44g out and currently aim for 60g out over 60 seconds, but part of the reason for asking the question was to ask whether I’m more likely to get a better shot by getting it closer to the 2:1 ratio.

                      I suppose the general advice is to use the 2:1 as a rule of thumb, but Tweak to find the sweet spot

                      • MWJB replied to this.

                        Cuprajake

                        Low flow and pre infusion are both options on the bianca, but I tend to use the latter and avoid playing the paddle.

                        I prefer to do a full extraction Vs stop and soak etc

                        Seemed to work better as the low flow is 4bar.

                        Prob got a vid somewhere but I locked all my YouTube up.

                        Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                          BigTTony You will get the best shot at the ratio that lets the coffee extract fully, as long as it is concentrated enough for your taste. That might be 1:2 for more soluble beans, it might be a longer ratio for less soluble beans.

                          You shouldn’t need to extend the shot time for longer ratios, as the larger amount of water pushed through the puck will be very effective at lifting extraction. Grinding too fine, to push up the extraction time, can have the opposite effect and reduce permeability of the puck & extraction. Or, not raise extraction significantly and just make shots unnecessarily silty.

                          So, if you are happy with the concentration at 22:60g, I’d use this as default. If shots have a flat/silty/muddled/muddy character, try shortening the ratio to restore clarity & intensity.

                            Uncletits many thanks. I’m a regular customer, so I’m already aware 😊

                            MWJB many thanks for the extra tips, I’ll give it a go. Out of interest, how do I know how soluble the beans are or how can I find out?

                            Cuprajake let me know if you can find it or know what to search for on YT. I’d be willing to give it a go as it sound like an interesting alternative approach.

                            Darker the roast more soluble generally

                            Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                            That one looks like a 5s low flow but you get the jist

                            Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -