Hi, I've been using decent espresso machines for years and currently own a Lelit Bianca, v3. I dose 22g in a VST basket and for some reason, I've got in the habit of pulling a 60g shot over 60 seconds, which includes a preinfusion time of 7 seconds. I like to enjoy a larger cup of coffee, so I think I'm psychologically convincing myself that bigger shot is more flavour in the cup, whereas a smaller shot won't offer as much flavour. I also consider that the preinfusion time doesn't count towards the shot, so in effect, it's more like 53 seconds for 60g from a 22g dose. To complicate further, I also switch coffees every 1-2 months which obviously affects the grind, resulting in shots varying in pull time. This mornings coffee was 22g in, 62g out in 44 secs, but if you remove the preinfusion, it's 62g out in 37 secs. I'll admit that some shots are very nice, with others tasting naff, so I'd like to try and get back to pulling great shots instead of settling into a rut. Can I get some opinions on what you would try to get the most of my shot eg, what preinfusion time would you suggest to go with a 22g dose, plus extraction time and weight. The general advice is 2:1 including preinfusion, but a 22g VST is quite deep, so I need to consider how long it'll take to wet all the coffee grinds equally before hitting it with 9 bar of pressure for the shot. I'm inclined to try something like 10 secs pre infusion and then aim for 44g over a total time of 54 seconds. Would anyone care to agree or disagree? Thanks in advance Tony

@"BigTTony"#p72782 I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. At the end of the day, it's about obtaining a drink that you enjoy. You won't like what I have to say (because it's obvious), but you could try what works for you... 10s pre infusion + 20 seconds, + 30 seconds, yielding 40g, or 50g, or 60g, or 65g. Try it, see what you like, and enjoy your coffee. To your point... My current "go to" is 10s pre infusion (because that's what I've been using for a long time) and 45g in the cup, from a 19g dose. Timings? That varies... Usually it's 35s, sometimes it's 38s, sometimes it's 32s. Whatever it is... I'll just drink and move on with my life. There hasn't been anything so far that I haven't enjoyed :-)

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p72783 I don't disagree, but it's not as simple as what you suggest for the reasons we've both articulated. Trial and error is absolutely part of the journey, but I'm trying to find a system or formula I can rely on. Maybe I'm being unrealistic as I recognise what you're saying and kind of expected that type of response. I'm grateful for you taking the time to reply none the less.

@"Cuprajake"#p72784 Currently trying this one, but I've also got a bag of their Halloween blend, which they no longer sell. I tend to go for smooth, chocolate, nutty, Brazilian types of coffee, but also try Columbian and similar regional coffees. https://coffeelink.com/shop/coffee/bags/brazil-serra-negra/?_gl=1\*9m8zy2\*_up\*MQ..&gclid=Cj0KCQiA57G5BhDUARIsACgCYny9ejMFYba0nFxVFB-jG2KCLqzC3i_q8S1v8V7lRsMFlCdqwuF0d-kaArl8EALw_wcB

> @"BigTTony"#p72786 but I’m trying to find a system or formula I can rely on. To make myself clear: What I am saying here is that you know what you like - so you can find what you like (and subsequently stick to what you like) - People will suggest what works for them, but it might not necessarily work for you. There are so many variables. For instance, you told us the machine you have (Bianca), but you never told us your grinder, or the type of coffee you enjoy, and whether it's milk based, or pure, or with added water, etc, etc, etc. :-) - In reading between the lines, you said you enjoy a longer drink by potentially over-extracting your shot. Most poeple here would tend to disagree that's the right thing to do. Others will swear blind by turbo shots, which seems what you might be trying to achieve here.

Laziness has crept in

Cuprajake

ah, ok, if more traditional id pull a 2:1 and put it in water, vs over extracting too much. then you can control your extractions

if a v3 use the pump features and have the paddle fully open, 25-35 seconds from lifiting the lever

BigTTony

Cuprajake

Thanks Jake, just to clarify though - how much pre infusion are you suggesting? If I’m reading you right, you’re saying 25 to 35 seconds total time, including pre infusion, which suggests a short pre infusion of say 5 seconds to allow steady extraction of coffee over the remaining ~30 seconds. How much coffee (in grammes) do you expect from that approach?

BigTTony

MediumRoastSteam

Apologies, I wasn’t being critical of your initial response. You mention that most would disagree with my approach to over extract, which is exactly to my point ie what would they suggest in my circumstances.

My preferred drink would be a strong milk based coffee, so if I go to a chain coffee shop I tend to ask for large latte with extra shot. I sometime opt for oat milk and when I’m at home I’ll often have a flat white as I like to avoid the extra calories that come with too many lattes!

My grinder is a niche zero and I either use waitrose Lockhils water or tesco ashbeck.

I’m more than willing to try new methods and don’t mind the trial and error approach. To be explicit, I’m asking for suggestions on specific methods to go away and trial.

MediumRoastSteam

BigTTony My preferred drink would be a strong milk based coffee, so if I go to a chain coffee shop I tend to ask for large latte with extra shot.

So that I understand: when you say you prefer a longer drink (e.g: 60g, over extracted) is that as a black coffee or do you then add milk to it and make a flat white/cappuccino? If so, stick to shorter ratios (e.g: a 38g or 40g shot from a 22g dose) as the coffee tends to be stronger/more intense in terms of flavour - for me at least.

MWJB

BigTTony I’m not sure that it is helpful to differentiate preinfusion time from total shot time.

Long preinfusions tend to lead to faster running shots, post preinfusion, at the same grind size.

A puck holds roughly its own weight in water, so if you end up with a 1:2 shot in 30s, you have introduced 3x the water weight to the puck in order to get that 1:2 shot out, flow started before you saw the first drops,

BigTTony

MWJB

Thanks for the input and this is why I’m maybe over analysing everything. In simple terms, I can’t work out how to pull the best shot. ie whether to include or exclude things like pre infusion and how it affects the ratios.

Do you suggest just looking at the whole process as one sequence of events? In that approach, the result would be to aim for 44g of coffee in 44 seconds if I’m understanding you correctly. But pre infusion currently takes a total of 12 seconds (including the pause) so it would mean coffee is extracted over a period of ~32 seconds which kind of works to what Jake was suggesting.

MWJB

BigTTony The coffee is being extracted over longer than 32 seconds, because the first drips are already coffee extract, they took several seconds to get there & travelled the depth of the puck.

I’m not sure why 44g in 44s is a target. If you want 44g out, that’s great, but adjust grind to optimise the taste and live with whatever time gives you your preferred flavour balance. +/-3s of shot time can be considered ‘the same’ as time is a knock on effect of grind change, rather than the primary driver of extraction (grind size).

Maybe pick a preinfusion time and stick to it.

If you like larger drinks and you feel that more shots than you would like are on the sour side, try 1:2.5, or a little longer.

BigTTony

MWJB

I can see your point re coffee extraction.

The 44g over 44 seconds is the 2:1 ratio based on 22g dose, which is my standard go to coffee dose. I don’t specifically want 44g out and currently aim for 60g out over 60 seconds, but part of the reason for asking the question was to ask whether I’m more likely to get a better shot by getting it closer to the 2:1 ratio.

I suppose the general advice is to use the 2:1 as a rule of thumb, but Tweak to find the sweet spot

Cuprajake

low flow mode for 10s then full power to the end of the shot,

17-18g in 30-40g out in roughly 30s from lifting the lever

BigTTony

Cuprajake

Low flow and pre infusion are both options on the bianca, but I tend to use the latter and avoid playing the paddle.

MWJB

BigTTony You will get the best shot at the ratio that lets the coffee extract fully, as long as it is concentrated enough for your taste. That might be 1:2 for more soluble beans, it might be a longer ratio for less soluble beans.

You shouldn’t need to extend the shot time for longer ratios, as the larger amount of water pushed through the puck will be very effective at lifting extraction. Grinding too fine, to push up the extraction time, can have the opposite effect and reduce permeability of the puck & extraction. Or, not raise extraction significantly and just make shots unnecessarily silty.

So, if you are happy with the concentration at 22:60g, I’d use this as default. If shots have a flat/silty/muddled/muddy character, try shortening the ratio to restore clarity & intensity.

Cuprajake

I prefer to do a full extraction Vs stop and soak etc

Seemed to work better as the low flow is 4bar.

Prob got a vid somewhere but I locked all my YouTube up.

BigTTony

Cuprajake let me know if you can find it or know what to search for on YT. I’d be willing to give it a go as it sound like an interesting alternative approach.

Uncletits

BigTTony just out of interest to everyone Coffeelink currently have 35% off using BLACKFRIDAY as the code

BigTTony

Uncletits many thanks. I’m a regular customer, so I’m already aware 😊

BigTTony

MWJB many thanks for the extra tips, I’ll give it a go. Out of interest, how do I know how soluble the beans are or how can I find out?

Cuprajake

Darker the roast more soluble generally

Cuprajake

That one looks like a 5s low flow but you get the jist

BigTTony

I thought I’d share that I looked at the weight of the Puck post extraction (something I’ve never done before) and found it weighed 47g going off my current setup.

So 22g dose, 44 seconds pull time from lifting the lever (including pre infusion), 60g out, 47g weight to the puck.

Coffee tastes OK, nothing special. Slightly bitter aftertaste if anything.

I’ve ordered some new scales and I’m going to order a shot measuring glass to improve my measuring ability.

MWJB

BigTTony The weight of the puck isn’t going to tell you much, I only mentioned it in order to explain that flow through the puck begins before drips are visible.

If the coffee is sharp/tart/mouth puckering at your typical ratio, then it is under extracted, if grind adjustments don’t fix it, then the coffee is on the less soluble side & going longer on ratio can help.

If the coffee produced is flat/muddy/lacking in clarity, maybe with an overly powdery mouthfeel, then you may have pushed too much water through the puck, so try going shorter on the ratio to clean things up. If it is both tart/sharp & powdery, then it is likely ground too fine and too short a ratio.

Bitterness alone, without more context/detail doesn’t tell you much.

Roast level can affect the solubility, but Colombians, Rwandans & Kenyans tend to be on the more soluble side, Brazilians, Costa Ricans & Guatemalans on the less soluble side. Always best to actually brew and adjust on your results, rather than 2nd guess what is going to happen.

BigTTony

MediumRoastSteam I’m definitely milk based. I rarely drink black coffee and if I opt for no milk, I tend to drink espresso.

BigTTony

MWJB this is the type of info I’ve been hoping to gain. It’s not that other comments haven’t been helpful, but more a case of it being difficult to articulate the issue, whilst at the same time helping people understand my own knowledge.

On the latter point, the laziness extends to me limiting what I’ve decided to learn throughout my journey, so I wasn’t aware of what you’ve shared. I guess I’ll tighten the grind a little and see whether that improves the taste, but as you say, the beans may be more soluble, so I need to condor that at the same time. Lots to think about, but thanks for being patient whilst we exchange back and forth.