ah, ok, if more traditional id pull a 2:1 and put it in water, vs over extracting too much. then you can control your extractions

if a v3 use the pump features and have the paddle fully open, 25-35 seconds from lifiting the lever

Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

    MediumRoastSteam

    Apologies, I wasn’t being critical of your initial response. You mention that most would disagree with my approach to over extract, which is exactly to my point ie what would they suggest in my circumstances.

    My preferred drink would be a strong milk based coffee, so if I go to a chain coffee shop I tend to ask for large latte with extra shot. I sometime opt for oat milk and when I’m at home I’ll often have a flat white as I like to avoid the extra calories that come with too many lattes!

    My grinder is a niche zero and I either use waitrose Lockhils water or tesco ashbeck.

    I’m more than willing to try new methods and don’t mind the trial and error approach. To be explicit, I’m asking for suggestions on specific methods to go away and trial.

      Cuprajake

      Thanks Jake, just to clarify though - how much pre infusion are you suggesting? If I’m reading you right, you’re saying 25 to 35 seconds total time, including pre infusion, which suggests a short pre infusion of say 5 seconds to allow steady extraction of coffee over the remaining ~30 seconds. How much coffee (in grammes) do you expect from that approach?

      • MWJB replied to this.

        BigTTony I’m not sure that it is helpful to differentiate preinfusion time from total shot time.

        Long preinfusions tend to lead to faster running shots, post preinfusion, at the same grind size.

        A puck holds roughly its own weight in water, so if you end up with a 1:2 shot in 30s, you have introduced 3x the water weight to the puck in order to get that 1:2 shot out, flow started before you saw the first drops,

          MWJB

          Thanks for the input and this is why I’m maybe over analysing everything. In simple terms, I can’t work out how to pull the best shot. ie whether to include or exclude things like pre infusion and how it affects the ratios.

          Do you suggest just looking at the whole process as one sequence of events? In that approach, the result would be to aim for 44g of coffee in 44 seconds if I’m understanding you correctly. But pre infusion currently takes a total of 12 seconds (including the pause) so it would mean coffee is extracted over a period of ~32 seconds which kind of works to what Jake was suggesting.

          • MWJB replied to this.

            BigTTony The coffee is being extracted over longer than 32 seconds, because the first drips are already coffee extract, they took several seconds to get there & travelled the depth of the puck.

            I’m not sure why 44g in 44s is a target. If you want 44g out, that’s great, but adjust grind to optimise the taste and live with whatever time gives you your preferred flavour balance. +/-3s of shot time can be considered ‘the same’ as time is a knock on effect of grind change, rather than the primary driver of extraction (grind size).

            Maybe pick a preinfusion time and stick to it.

            If you like larger drinks and you feel that more shots than you would like are on the sour side, try 1:2.5, or a little longer.

              low flow mode for 10s then full power to the end of the shot,

              17-18g in 30-40g out in roughly 30s from lifting the lever

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                MWJB

                I can see your point re coffee extraction.

                The 44g over 44 seconds is the 2:1 ratio based on 22g dose, which is my standard go to coffee dose. I don’t specifically want 44g out and currently aim for 60g out over 60 seconds, but part of the reason for asking the question was to ask whether I’m more likely to get a better shot by getting it closer to the 2:1 ratio.

                I suppose the general advice is to use the 2:1 as a rule of thumb, but Tweak to find the sweet spot

                • MWJB replied to this.

                  Cuprajake

                  Low flow and pre infusion are both options on the bianca, but I tend to use the latter and avoid playing the paddle.

                  I prefer to do a full extraction Vs stop and soak etc

                  Seemed to work better as the low flow is 4bar.

                  Prob got a vid somewhere but I locked all my YouTube up.

                  Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                    BigTTony You will get the best shot at the ratio that lets the coffee extract fully, as long as it is concentrated enough for your taste. That might be 1:2 for more soluble beans, it might be a longer ratio for less soluble beans.

                    You shouldn’t need to extend the shot time for longer ratios, as the larger amount of water pushed through the puck will be very effective at lifting extraction. Grinding too fine, to push up the extraction time, can have the opposite effect and reduce permeability of the puck & extraction. Or, not raise extraction significantly and just make shots unnecessarily silty.

                    So, if you are happy with the concentration at 22:60g, I’d use this as default. If shots have a flat/silty/muddled/muddy character, try shortening the ratio to restore clarity & intensity.

                      Uncletits many thanks. I’m a regular customer, so I’m already aware 😊

                      MWJB many thanks for the extra tips, I’ll give it a go. Out of interest, how do I know how soluble the beans are or how can I find out?

                      Cuprajake let me know if you can find it or know what to search for on YT. I’d be willing to give it a go as it sound like an interesting alternative approach.

                      Darker the roast more soluble generally

                      Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                      That one looks like a 5s low flow but you get the jist

                      Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                      I thought I’d share that I looked at the weight of the Puck post extraction (something I’ve never done before) and found it weighed 47g going off my current setup.

                      So 22g dose, 44 seconds pull time from lifting the lever (including pre infusion), 60g out, 47g weight to the puck.

                      Coffee tastes OK, nothing special. Slightly bitter aftertaste if anything.

                      I’ve ordered some new scales and I’m going to order a shot measuring glass to improve my measuring ability.

                      • MWJB replied to this.

                        BigTTony My preferred drink would be a strong milk based coffee, so if I go to a chain coffee shop I tend to ask for large latte with extra shot.

                        So that I understand: when you say you prefer a longer drink (e.g: 60g, over extracted) is that as a black coffee or do you then add milk to it and make a flat white/cappuccino? If so, stick to shorter ratios (e.g: a 38g or 40g shot from a 22g dose) as the coffee tends to be stronger/more intense in terms of flavour - for me at least.

                          BigTTony The weight of the puck isn’t going to tell you much, I only mentioned it in order to explain that flow through the puck begins before drips are visible.

                          If the coffee is sharp/tart/mouth puckering at your typical ratio, then it is under extracted, if grind adjustments don’t fix it, then the coffee is on the less soluble side & going longer on ratio can help.

                          If the coffee produced is flat/muddy/lacking in clarity, maybe with an overly powdery mouthfeel, then you may have pushed too much water through the puck, so try going shorter on the ratio to clean things up. If it is both tart/sharp & powdery, then it is likely ground too fine and too short a ratio.

                          Bitterness alone, without more context/detail doesn’t tell you much.

                          Roast level can affect the solubility, but Colombians, Rwandans & Kenyans tend to be on the more soluble side, Brazilians, Costa Ricans & Guatemalans on the less soluble side. Always best to actually brew and adjust on your results, rather than 2nd guess what is going to happen.