I’m using profitec drive with niche duo, 18g vst basket. Not with every beans but most of them I’m getting unpleasant harshness, bitterness. I know coffee is bitter but unpleasant. After adjusting grind setting when I start getting some sweetness then there is still that harsh bitter aftertaste. I’ve been using different roasters, adjusting temperature, ratio by 5 ml and still, again some beans I’m getting great results but with so many of them , and currently red brick I’m just not sure how to get it of that unpleasant taste.

@"MuddyOne"#p74438 Red Bricks is by Square Miles, right? What’s your typical ratio and shot time of your espresso? I have never used a VST basket. IIRC, @"Cuprajake"#144 have had VST baskets on his Bianca before. Water, Water temperature, grind settings, puck prep can be a contributing factor. Please load a video of your shot. I am sure we have a few members who use VST baskets. They may be able to assist you after looking at the video.

@"LMSC"#p74440 Maybe I’ll try with stock basket, yes red brick is by square mile but I had that with different roasters too. My typical starting point is 1:2 then I adjust once I get grind setting and temperature right. But sometimes nothing seems to be helping 🤷🏻♂️ I can post video of shot in couple days as I have couple of maintenance things to do with my drive .

Loose the vst, Temp will be your enemy

Make sure machine is hot, 45 minutes at least. Set temperature to 94C. Leave the flow control alone, fully open. I’m assuming you are using a bottomless porta filter. If not, do that, and work on your prep. Make sure the shot is extracted properly and evenly. Set the pressure to 9 bar (using the screw under the machine).

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p74444 So the machine is set at 11 bar right? I think I remember seeing that somewhere before, why do they ship machine like that? Why do you suggest to leave control vslvd fully open? Profitec says that normal flow is achieved at 1 And 1/4 , I’m asking these questions to have better understanding about your advice.

@"MuddyOne"#p74455 - judging by your comments, you need to diagnose what your shots have an unpleasant harshness and dryness. I’m suggesting you go back to basics and start from a common baseline. I wouldn’t take the manual as gospel. They also tell you to descale the machine, blackflush and never lubricate the cam.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p74458 you say I shouldn’t be backflushing either?

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p74458 where do I start then ? You said go back to baseline ?

My current “ tactic” is that I pull a shot 1:2 ratio , taste and adjust grind accordingly . Once I find best grind setting then I lock that too and see if adjust ratio helps, if going either way by 5-10ml helps I lock it , if not I get back to 1:2 . After all that is locked I adjust temperature to see if that improves anything. Any advice here then I’m Doing stuff wrong?

if its not all beans then perhaps just crap beans?

I can’t seem to get rid of unpleasant harshness and dryness

MediumRoastSteam

Ok… some results then 👍😊

Please have a read of that Reddit thread I posted. There are two main takeaways: settings and flow rate. Read the whole thing and then see if anything could be applied to your scenario.

If you do change anything… just make a note of the change. You can’t break it. And everything is reversible. 👍

MuddyOne

MediumRoastSteam I scrolled everything up and can’t find Reddit link can you post this again?;)

Adrianmsmith

MuddyOne

Its a big enough link!!!!

Scroll back up and click on :

MuddyOne

Adrianmsmith oh that was a link I thought a screenshot from conversations, forgive me :))

Damn scace devices are 500£+

MuddyOne

I did changes to d1 from 8 to 11 and pp1 from 2.0 to 2.5 lets see what happens.

MuddyOne

My first impression after one shot is that probably made temperature a little bit higher, at 93 degrees the steam sound is just louder , and it affected flow rate which is now bit slower , the shot that previously took 28 sec now took 33 I noticed slower flow from the first moments , but I’ll keep trying.

Adrianmsmith

MuddyOne

You need to take out some guess work and check the water temp at the group.

The current approach isnt healthy for your sanity or the machine 😎

Some people rake the piss out if using numbers and actual real data for everything. Well woo is wrong on that one!!

You Need some actual numbers .

MuddyOne

Adrianmsmith I know I know that’s why I said that doing anything on my own is like that, the whole trial and error is pointless without proper instrument and spending 500£ in a scace device is not something I will do considering machine is under warranty and it’s retailer job to do so.

MediumRoastSteam

MuddyOne instrument and spending 500£ in a scace device is not something I will do considering machine is under warranty and it’s retailer job to do so.

That’s right.

The PID numbers won’t change much. All it MIGHT do is stop the machine from overheating when idling, that’s all. As Adrian said, someone needs to take a look at your machine pragmatically. I hope the retailer can help you with that. The scary part is that you are not alone, and there are others, very clearly, struggling with a machine of such calibre. You shouldn’t be experiencing what you are experiencing. Looks like ECM/Profitec, whatever they did…. They managed to mess up somewhere.

Adrianmsmith

MuddyOne

You dont need that just to check water temp.

Yes that’s the ultimate.

i leave the Ferrari at home when going to Tesco!!

I realise you dont have anything to habd to use but a cheap one will do with a wire couple. Its not like you need it all day every day.

Can lend you my fluke if you want . I never use it.

MuddyOne

Adrianmsmith Thanks ,I’ll get one from my work , it’s old device but I heard it’s very accurate. I used it in the past with sage barista touch and it gave me readings reported by other people who’s been testing temp .

I’ll report temperature in a couple days. 👍

MediumRoastSteam

MuddyOne - also, on that same Reddit thread, they talk about flow rates. The OP opted for a machine without the flow control valve and says the flow rate is crazy. Consider reducing your flow control valve by another quarter turn and see if that improve things (I.e: lengthen the shot by a couple of seconds) including taste.

MuddyOne

MediumRoastSteam can you say whenever you get a chance how many ml your machine delivers in 10s?

Mine does about 100-110ml with one and a quarter turn- which is meant to be default for brewing.

MediumRoastSteam

MuddyOne Mine does about 100-110ml with one and a quarter turn- which is meant to be default for brewing

Mine is a vibe pump so likely to be very different.

11ml/s is what the OP says is good in that thread, so it looks like you are good. Apparently the OP’s machine delivered 17ml/s!

Adrianmsmith

MuddyOne

@MediumRoastSteam

This is pretty much accepted as standard FOR A ROTARY PUMP ECM etc

11g per second so a can of coke , 330g in 30 seconds

MuddyOne

MediumRoastSteam I just received an email from retailer basically telling me to adjust off set, pretty much to do what Jake with the link to instructions posted.

“ if you get flash boiling at 93 degrees set off set by minus 6”

How should I respond to this or just take the advice?

MuddyOne

Adrianmsmith so 110 in 10s which is precisely what is mine doing, seems alright.

I have posted another thread on home-barista I’m hoping for find another profitec drive user to share experience, there must be some out there.

MediumRoastSteam

MuddyOne - Did you explain the problem, i.e.: that the flash boiling is only happening after the machine is left idling for a while?

MuddyOne

MediumRoastSteam yeah I did , sent that email before Christmas break and they may have forgot about that fact. But I sent them a reminder now with screenshot of that email, and a video I recorded ( I didn’t record first video after 30 minutes)

Basically what we talked is now reflected on devices , I switched machine on , set to 95 put the wire into ports filter and after 30 minutes it showed 95 degrees, plus minus half degree. But after another 30 minutes it showed that :

I sent them this video and explained that 30 minutes after turning on it was showing 95 degrees, now 99.

MediumRoastSteam

MuddyOne - Excellent! I hope they “get it” (i.e.: how can a machine like fluctuate the temperature like that when idle?) - It’s a dual boiler machine, not an HX!

I hope you find resolution and that your retailer sees the problem (rather than pretend everything is just fine). And I hope you don’t hear the usual: “Oh, that’s just perfectly normal. I wouldn’t worry about that. Those machines need a cooling flush after being idle for longer than 30 minutes”. No, no, no. It’s a dual boiler. It should not behave like that.

Good luck.

MuddyOne

MediumRoastSteam

This is the answer I got from them

“The coffee boiler temp will heat up the longer the machine is on, so perhaps best to put the machine in eco mode when not needing it to make coffee, or when not used for longer periods.”

I replied that if machine is not keeping stable temperature that was set then that’s not how pid should work and is certainly malfunctioning.

But setting the offset to minus four helped keep 95 degrees ,I need to wait till tomorrow for machine to cool down now to see if that is the case both after 30 minutes and 1h

MediumRoastSteam

MuddyOne The coffee boiler temp will heat up the longer the machine is on, so perhaps best to put the machine in eco mode when not needing it to make coffee, or when not used for longer periods.”

As predicted.

MediumRoastSteam “Oh, that’s just perfectly normal. I wouldn’t worry about that. Those machines need a cooling flush after being idle for longer than 30 minutes”. No, no, no. It’s a dual boiler. It should not behave like that.

Total nonsense. As Jake said… It’s a dual boiler. One boiler is for brew water (i.e.: Should be kept at brewing temperature at all times) - the other other boiler is for steaming. There’s no reason for the brew boiler to overheat over time - That ’s for a Heat Exchanger machine behaviour.

They are fobbing you off.

Total nonsense.

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