Gagaryn I wonder how much protecting their income on “pro” sales will impact sales of the home version. I fear they may have shot themselves in the foot.

I suspect it depends on whether their market is the “Apple” demographic, or the enthusiast demographic. For the former, maybe not much. For the latter, it kills it stone dead, IMHO.

      CoffeePhilE

      It’s frustrating. The plus side of devices being app controlled is the ease of adding functionality and new features over time. The downside is that is easy for manufacturers to lock users out of functionality that the hardware is capable of. The home version is clearly being marketed with a focus on ease rather than flexibility. I’m now worried that Sandbox has or will have the same limitations.

        What really concerns me is the notion of retrospective changes, whether I like it or not. I mean, if the entire control interface is via app, and that app relies on their (profile) database in the back end, they can withdraw the app’s access any time they like, including if, for example, you don’t upgrade the app to their latest ‘supported’ version. And that app could remove facilities that include the reason I bought that hardware in the first place.

        I think you’re right when you said earlier it’s an age thing. That, and an experience thing. I feel rather like ‘been there, done that, got the battle scars’, not least with MS Windows, though the most overt example was Adobe going subscription-only for most of their product range … like Photoshop and Premiere.

        I have no reason to expect that they will do this sort of thing, but that experience tells me that most companies tend to do what suits them, not what they feel is fair to users. What bothers me Is that they can do it, at all. It boils down to “Do I trust them?” No. How can I? I don’t know them.

        What if, for instance, they decide in a year or two that even using the roaster at all is suddenly a subscription service?

        In the past, with computer hardware, yeah you still had to rely on drivers but I was cautious enough to always download copies of drivers I was using, so in the event I had to re-install, I didn’t even have to rely on still being downloadable, or even the company still existing. I might never get new, updated or even bug-fixed software or drivers, but at least they couldn’t remove the functionality the hardware functionality it had when I bought it. If it would do a job when I bought it, it could be guaranteed to continue doing it until the hardware itself died.

        But not with this model. The manufacturers can not only not improve stuff, they can even lock you out of it, if they so choose, or hold you to ransom. Which is why I switched away from Adobe stuff to completely different software, at considerable inconvenience, when they did that, after about 20 years of usage, rather than pay to ‘upgrade’ to a subscription-only system.

        CoffeePhilE - ps: when I said they could stick an Apple sticker on it and it would fit the range nice, I didn’t mean to be negative. I’m an Apple fan, and I do think they finish their products well, design them well and, most importantly, they do think quite a bit about usability. Of course, they also do charge accordingly, and it doesn’t necessarily mean what their product do is better than other products.

        To my mind, even though I never seen an Ikawa roaster, it does look very “Apple-like” and it does feel, to me, they seem to aim at that sort of segment of consumers, those who want a nice, well made and sleek product.

          Oh, I agree. I wasn’t intending to diss Apple. Well, tweak them a smidge, maybe. ;)

          But no, I don’t have a problem with Apple. I do think they have a different …. approach, however.

          Firstly, as a company, they do things their way. Don’t like it, don’t buy Apple. That isn’t necessariy a bad thing and what they aren’t is “me too”. They are, however, as hard-nosed as anybody, business-wise.

          But what I really meant was they tend to put the emphasis on design and style, and on usability, but typically, at a price. If you’re looking for a budget brand, look elsewhere. As for the usability thing, it is something, again, of a double-edged sword (IMHO). Interface design is often very good from one perspective, that being ease of use, but the double-edge is that it can be very limiting. You pretty much have to go with the flow,and do things the Apple way. Personally, I usually don’t. I want to set things up the way I want them set up. My …. ethos, my philosophy if you like, of computing, jars a bit with the Apple mindset. It doesn’t suit me but that doesn’t mean I think it’s ‘wrong’ or that it isn’t perfectly valid for others to love it. I am certainly pro-choice, in that regard.

          For a very long time, I was very much a Windows enthusiast. That started rubbing off when MS started (or to be fair, probably a bit after they first started) trying to tell users to do things the MS way. The deal-breaker of my trust in MS was when they started forcing auto-updates on Windows users, one of which was the infamous Windows 8 Start Menu debacle. That mindset continues with the Win 11 launch.

          So, for the most part, I’ve migrated much of what I do to Linux. The upside is I get to decide how I want to do things to a far, FAR greater degree, but the downside is, well, it has …. ummm, a ‘learning curve’. To say the least.

          Note - when I say I’m not anti-Apple, how many people do you know that aren’t on a select list of Apple employees, and yet have been invited into their (code-locked) prototype rooms? You now know one more. Yup, I went out to San Jose and had the guided tour, behind the locked doors that most Apple employees don’t even get inside. Was it interesting? Oh, hell, yeah. They had ….. lots of stuff I promised not to tell anybody about. And I’m not going to. :D

          12 days later

          I’d buy the new Behmor 2020 again for £250 like a shot. I had mine for almost a year now, and yes - it has some (minor) drawbacks, but a pair of leather gloves, some easily rigged up external cooling ( or just passing the beans between 2 colanders) will do the trick. My average roast loss is 15%, some lighter roasts of mine at 13%, some quite dark ones around 18%. 300gr roasts are always good and better, yielding about 250gr. Occasionally I’m doing 400gr. which with less chaffy beans are also producing good results. I keep my roast logbook, so learned to anticipate 1st. crack and reduce heat just prior. The crack is easy to hear, bean colour reasonably visible through the glass, the smell, aroma development by quickly opening/closing the door. If you need or want a computer program to run the roast for you this would need some modding, and even then probably fall short of your need. The temperature given is not compatible with bean probes on other machines.

          For me though, with its hands on approach, it’s a great machine. I’ve done just over 30kg with it, and enjoy my 1 to 2 fortnightly roasting sessions in my garden cabin a lot. It’s a great way to have a range of fresh quality beans available, both to enjoy for yourself, family and friends, and to learn much more about origins and processes then I ever have before.

          Photo below shows small samples of my 2 last roasts. A Mexican Maragogype and a Brazilian Bom Jesus. Spot the elephant 😊

            @Gagaryn

            Price difference between the Sandbox (with cooler) and Ikawa is not that huge really - £970 vs £695. If the Ikawa offers similar results then the extra cost is worth the convenience to me - smaller, neater, all-in one with no external cooling and no chaff flying around the room etc.

            I don’t think you get chaff flying around the room with the Sandbox. The Ikawa is an air roaster and without saying one will be better than the other the results will be different.

            @CoffeePhilE

            The Pro versions have much more control, for instance over both inlet and exhaust vent air temps, and apparently, either by inference or sensor (not sure which) bean mass temp. The idea is to test/develop rost profiles on the Ikawa that can then be transferred to commercial roasters that do have bean mass temp probes.

            You can’t transfer profiles from the Ikawa or any other air roaster to a larger drum roaster. It might be somewhat possible to transfer to a larger batch air roaster but I think even that would be unlikely to be an exact transfer as batch size, temp control and airflow will mean you need to make changes. These are ‘sample’ roasters for cupping. Excellent for roasters and importers to assess green beans and very useful in that they are portable so can be taken to farms to sample coffee. Not really good for exploring what flavours you can get when you roast at a larger scale (though you’d at least get an idea) but good for cupping, assessing defects and coming up with some flavour notes.

            I think when you buy these air roasters you’re paying mostly for the software, and in the case of professional portable options the use case for importers and roasters make it valuable.

            CoffeePhilE Again, due to circumstances, getting more roasts done in a short period of time accelerates the learning curve. For me, doing two or three a week is a good thing, compared to doing two or three a month, for larger batches. I agree that usually those small batches would be a negative, but for me, I think they’re actually a positive. Maybe I need to explain why. Let me think about that a bit.

            I’m not sure it will accelerate the learning curve the way you think it will. You will learn how not to get terrible results quickly but you could very easily just end up in confusion especially when you’re just learning if you try to do things more complex to alter flavour notes. When you’ve been roasting a bit maybe four small batches would be good and then you can run a final one that should hopefully be the one you use over and over again. The problem is coffee will change and it can be quite a substantial and unpredictable change over a period of time, and not even necessarily linear i.e. flavours evolve over time and don’t just go from not there (needs resting) - there (rested) - losing notes on the way to going stale. I’ve noticed significant changes in roasts from week 1 all the way to week 6-8 before the changes become predictable (i.e tailing off on the way to going stale) with some really being at their very best right up to the end of that window. If you’re making 100g batches you’re not going to taste them for 6 weeks…..though I guess you could make the argument that you would only be interested in roasting coffee in such a way that it’s ready to drink within a week even if that means it’s not the best you could get out of it. Of course, you can still do repeatable small batches and let some rest for long periods. My point is you aren’t necessarily going to be learning faster doing 3 or 4 roasts a week compared to 1 a week once you get past the initial few batches and can get something approximating a decent roast, which should happen fairly quickly if you use good coffee and don’t make the mistake of buying something cheap to learn with.

              17 days later

              SteveBRS , @Del_UK - I have succumbed and bought a Behmor, from HasBean, again, 11 months later. I just hope this time I manage to actually roast beans with it and it has no mechanical issues, or any issues. 🤞

              I’ll then have the Behmor and Gene side by side, so looking forward to being able to compare both.

                  I have to say that this time, it’s working perfectly. The previous one I had had a misaligned shaft, the control panel had spongey buttons, and who know whatever else as I didn’t even managed to roast 100g of coffee in it because I couldn’t deal with the screeching noise and the drum stuttering. It was painful to watch.

                  Thankfully Hasbean back then gave me a full refund (whilst Behmor CS just told me there was nothing wrong with my unit and were rather dismissive).

                  So here I am, 11 months later, with the Behmor. It’s so different from the Gene in terms of usability - In that regard I prefer the simplicity of the Gene Cafe, as well as the fact you can attach a vent hose and vent smoke out of the window. The Behmor has a smoke suppression system, which, in all honesty, seems to work well, as I just did a roast indoors, near a window and it’s not bad at all.

                  Comparing to the Gene, the Behmor requires more work to keep it clean, and it’s a little bit messier due to chaff flying around, specially if you want to cool the beans externally.

                    Del_UK Also, the cooling function is a bit useless as it stays really hot for a fair few minutes so I always dump the beans into a separate cooler

                    When you do that, do you literally open the roaster’s door, remove the chaff tray, the drum, dump the beans and re-activate the cooling cycle? Do you do so with with the chaff tray and drum back in the roaster (more swearing to attach it!!!!) or do you leave those outside?

                        MediumRoastSteam

                        I hit the stop button, remove the beans and cool them and then close up the roaster and hit cool. I usually leave the metal bits in the floor as I roast in a garage with nice heat proof concrete!

                        I think as long as the roaster internals are cooling it’s good.

                          MediumRoastSteam

                          Yes, chaff collector and drum left outside, close door, press cool. Vacuum up the loose chaff inside the Behmor after stopping the cooling cycle. Main action is getting the hot beans with your heatproof gloves quickly out of the drum into your cooling strainers.

                          One word of caution re bean drum insertion. The lids’ clasp is a bit flexible, and twice it opened whilst I inserted it in the holding fork. Rebending it that it clips a bit firmer seems to help. No fun scooping beans out from the preheated interior.