Hi All, recently moved over from the coffee forums after I realised everyone had left, just wanted to see what peoples thoughts are on the zerowater jugs? https://zerowater.co.uk/pages/shop are they actually good enough to use in a high end coffee machine?

@"Mik3"#p12443 Welcome to the forum, yeah I think people like the Zerowater jugs, they definitely work. Some do like to remineralise so it won't scale but tastes better. @"Rob1"#171 will probably stop in to advise. I guess all the adverts on CFUK starting to hurt your eyes…plus not a lot going on there now. Mainly business spam, paid forum fluffers, and the one post BTC machine users. 😉

@"DavecUK"#p12457 think it was mainly the signatures of people like yourself saying you no longer used the forums that made me look elsewhere haha landed here with incredible timing for a deal on a new machine too so it’s already working out for the best! I previously had an under sink 6 stage RO system but don’t have the space for it here so looking for an alternate solution that requires no plumbing in / drilling through worktops without spending too much good to know, cheers

> @"Mik3"#p12469 without spending too much This is very relative. What’s your budget please ? Apart from ZeroWater , the other counter top ROs would also work well - Osmio Zero, Skuma water to name a few. The latter isn’t released yet I think, while the former will set you back by £450-£500 inc accessories. As Dave said, people are happy with ZeroWater. I won’t know what the frequency of filter change would be. We have some ZW users, who will be able to advise you.

@"LMSC"#p12471 yeah I have seen the osmio zero but was a touch on the pricey side at the moment as I also need a new grinder 😂 so far as budget it’s really as cheap as I can get but that will ensure the new coffee machine is cared for from day one. Was thinking the zerowater would be a good option as I can get a 2.8l jug (big enough to fill the water tank in the machine) and 4 spare cartridges for \~£80 currently, just conscious that a £40 jug might not be as good as it claimed? My old under counter fixed unit was less than £300 but I left it in my last house, the glass kettle I had for 5 years still had a mirror finish on the element so really looking for the best I can get without breaking the bank to keep my machine as clean as I can

@"Mik3"#p12481 Neither I know what your machine is nor the ZW. Of course, we understand the budget constraint. So, spend wisely. If we are spending Ks on a machine, it remains good for a long time assuming she gets good water and TLC. We also have to be aware of the frequency of filter change, the cost of filters and a temporary or a permanent nature of the water solution. The longer the duration, the higher the cost and more so, if l hard water. The ROs may also require frequent filter change if you live in a hard water area. Some of us have Osmio Zero; she gets softened water. The filter therefore lasts 1 year at least. We view the one-time outlay as worth every penny. We drink, cook and feeds the coffee machine. Edit : I think @"dutchy101"#56 uses the Zero Jug.

I'm not sure you'll get 2.8l of purified water in that jug from a single fill. The filtration media has quite a lot of resistance, I found that if the bottom got too full, flow would stop. It was good for about a litre a time from the 2.3L version. If I bought a Zerowater again, I'd go for a larger reservoir.

@"LMSC"#p12487 yeah unfortunately the water here is classified as hard, it’s another reason I want to ensure there is a good level of filtering prior to any of it going anywhere, conscious £60 every 4-6 months would be adding up quickly on top of the £450 “If you have a hardness level over 250 Calcium Carbonate then you may need to change the carbon block and membrane more frequently than every 6 months.” the water company tells me it’s 281 mg/l of calcium carbonate

@"MWJB"#p12491 good to know, thanks for the insight, I was thinking it meant 2.8l filtered but most likely it’s the jugs capacity then

I've been using the 2.8l zero jug for about 4 months & remineralising for coffee. I reckon the usable capacity is around 2.6-2.7l from filling my 5l water bottle. Luckily I live in a soft water area < 50mg hardness & the original filter is still going strong running about 10 litres a week through it. The only minor niggle is the cover over the spout. It doesn't open enough on its own when pouring so the water stream can be broad & if you manually open it won't lock into place fully & flips down when pouring. So I end up having to hold the dam thing open. I suppose I could remove it but I do like that it prevents anything dropping in the jug.

@"Mik3"#p12493 Do you have a whole house softener installed?

Zero water jugs

SurreyAlan

Rob1 it’s a profitec 400 so single boiler hx, the boiler is only 1.6l. The tesco ashbeck has been watered down with zero already but yesterday I took a lot of hot water out of the boiler along with lots of back flushing and just running it through the head so while there’s bound to be some tesco still there it must be very diluted. Will see how it tastes tomorrow.

MediumRoastSteam

SurreyAlan along with lots of back flushing and just running it through the head so while there’s bound to be some tesco still there it must be very diluted.

Backflushing will do nothing. The water gets pumped, hits the expansion valve and goes back to the tank :-) - If you want to recycle the brew boiler, then just draw water from the group. 👍

SurreyAlan

Comes out in the drip tray on mine,?

Rob1

If it’s a HX there’s no need to empty the boiler. If you’ve got 100mg/l Sodium bicarb then you’ve increased the alkalinity significantly over ashbeck.

coffeealex

CoyoteOldMan If you use potassium, then instead of 67 - 100 mg/l you need to use 80 - 120 mg/l to get 40 - 60 KH

I have ordered some scales and potassium bicarbonate. I am going to use zero water for the time being and then remineralise it with KHCO₃.~

Could I please check the two formulas. the one above is :

80-120mgl = 0.08 - 0.12 grammes per litre of zero water

There is also a bulk formula you mentioned in the past where you add 20ml of it to I think 5 litres? Could you just remind me what that is please of potassium bicarbonate?

Also does it matter that much whether you put 80mgl or 120 mgl or anything in between. I was going to use 100mgl per litre of zero water to keep it simple and easy to remember

MediumRoastSteam

coffeealex - the more you put in, the more alkalinity you’ll have. In the cup, it will mute acidity. 100mg/L is what I do. Keep it nice and simple indeed.

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex Yep. All correct. 80 mg/l KHCO₃ will get you 40 KH and 120 mg/l will get you 60 KH. 100 mg/l is 50 KH. All are fine.

“my” concentrate is 1.60 grams of KHCO₃ in 400 ml water, then use 20 g (or ml) of this per litre of water to get 40 KH. The 400 ml is because I had a jar with a screw top that would hold that much, so scale it for whatever you are going to use - don’t make too much of it, or you’ll need months to use it (and probably end up throwing some away).

If you want to stick to 100 mg/l (50 KH), then use 2.00 grams in 400 ml of water, then use 20 g (ml) of concentrate per litre.

coffeealex

MediumRoastSteam going to do the same

Whats the bulk concentrated KHC03 formula where you use 20ml at a time please?

coffeealex

CoyoteOldMan Thank you for this. I know that you have to periodically flush the service boiler to prevent a build up of minerals. What would happen if you never flushed it? Would it increase the scalability?

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex If the only thing you are adding to the water is bicarbonate, scale will never be an issue. However, at some point, corrosion may be… as bicarbonate turns to much more alkaline carbonate. And at some other point the (bi)carbonate will saturate the water and start precipitating, which can cause all sorts of problems from clogging to disgusting-tasting coffee.

coffeealex

Thanks. This is the bit that always confuses me : I understand the scaling bit but still not fully understanding the corrosion part. I thought water was more corrosive the more acidic it became? Is there then also a point at which it is more corrosive when alkaline levels increase by quite s bit due to the accumulation of those in the boiler? Sorry for coming across a bit ignorant in all this.

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex Alkaline substances can be highly corrosive. “Caustic soda” (sodium hydroxide) is not called ‘caustic’ by chance.

Corrosion of metals by alkaline substances is usually less of a problem than by acids, but it’s not absent. 316/316L steels perform very well against alkali corrosion, but 304 steel and copper less so (copper particularly in the presence of carbonates).

coffeealex

CoyoteOldMan Thank you. Could I take a pH reading of water from the service boiler periodically to check it has not become too alkaline. if so what should the pH not go above?

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex Corrosion is not just driven by pH, but also by salts concentration (TDS), and which salt type(s), and the metal(s) involved, and their surface finish, and their physical layout, and, and, and… I’d rather use a rule of thumb and say that if you are using only bicarbonate, flushing water out and replacing it every couple of months is more than enough (unless you are in a commercial/high volume environment). You could probably go six months without any issues.

SurreyAlan

Many thanks for the concentrate idea, discovered my scales really aren’t that accurate measuring 0.1 gm though I thought later they might do better if I had put a weight on rather than starting at 0. As the new mix works its way through be interesting to see if the taste reverts, the oddest thing is that with zero water coffee tastes dry.

coffeealex

I have noticed that hardness in water is measures in multiple ways: ppl, mgl, french degrees, german degrees, caco3 etc. Which do most people use?

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex ppm and mg/l are pretty much the same (density of water is not 1.000 at room temperature, but close enough at 0.997). My observation is that ppm in CaCO₃ equivalents is the most widespread measurement in coffee circles, so that’s what I use.

BTW - A chemist would want to use mol/l or mmol/l, which - if expressed in CaCO₃ equivalents - have an almost exact (if coincidental) factor of 100 to ppm.

French degrees are the same as ppm, with an exact factor of 10 in the middle, which means the “outliers” are the Imperial/USC-based units (degrees Clarke and grains/gallon) and the “German” unit (dGH/°dH - using CaO instead of CaCO₃).

coffeealex

CoyoteOldMan What is the generally accepted level of CaCO3 before scaling occurs?

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex There isn’t one, as solubility of CaCO₃ (and MgCO₃) varies quite significantly with temperature, and hardness in CaCO₃ equivalents coming from different ions is not necessarily ‘equivalent’ from a scale formation point of view.

Rob1’s spreadsheet implements a calculation for a ‘maximum allowed hardness’ at a given temperature derived from an empirical formula which gives you a reasonable idea under certain assumptions (i.e. that the alkalinity in the water comes from bicarbonate ions); that could be incorrect if - for example - one were to use calcium citrate and no (bi)carbonates to get an alkaline buffer.

coffeealex

CoyoteOldMan

Thanks again. I thought it probably wasn’t a straightforward answer. In any case I am going to stick to your formula to keep things simple, otherwise my kitchen will as start to feel more like a chemistry lab.

Just one other curiosity. Whats your views on using osmio zero with the remineralisation cartridge left in, as opposed to a blank one. I appreciate it is reintroducing minerals back in, but do you feel it would as a result ( in general) lead to the likelihood of scaling?

SurreyAlan

I’m starting to think I’m not bright enough to own a coffee machine and perhaps I should just get my Sage out of the loft which ran on hard tap water for 5 years without issue. Reading that Sodium Bicarbonate was easy to find in a supermarket I picked up a likely tub in Waitrose as it had Bicarbonate of Soda on it which sounded similar but I suspect isn’t the right stuff at all, I must say I have amazing bubbly crema now and it’s definitely tasting better than zero water. Thoroughly confused as Wikipedia suggests my tub of sodium hydrogen carbonate is Sodium Bicarbonate. My last chemistry lesson was in 1968. Help.

MediumRoastSteam

SurreyAlan

Bicarbonate of soda

Baking Soda

Sodium bicarbonate

NaHCO3

Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate

They are all the same thing.

Just make sure you don’t confuse yourself between Baking Powder and Baking Soda, as You definitely don’t want Baking Powder into you coffee. 👍

MediumRoastSteam

SurreyAlan it had Bicarbonate of Soda on it which sounded similar but I suspect isn’t the right stuff at all, I must say I have amazing bubbly crema now and it’s definitely tasting better than zero water

How much did you use?

« Previous Page Next Page »