tompoland

Thanks for the information links tompoland. A great read/view, which confirms my earlier reading on the benefits of grinding from individual vacuum sealed frozen bags. (Conversely opening a larger frozen bag or container to retrieve frozen beans immediately introduces condensation moisture to that bag/container, so I have avoided that).

So I was vacuum sealing individual portion bags and then freezing. But that was/is a too slow process, especially when my too cheap/closet space friendly vacuum sealer overheats (purchased to avoid overfilling the kitchen closet with my ever growing collection of coffee stuff, which my wife complains about). Time to buy a better vacuum sealer and find a storage solution for it.

Given the tedium of vacuum sealing 20 or so single dose bags per pound of coffee (so 40 bags when I buy 2 lbs), I bought 24 mini mason jars of 4 oz size, which is the smallest available. I then easily and quickly filled the jars and froze them. The problem is as I described: moisture forms within the jars as soon as they are opened and returned to the freezer; not good. So back to vac sealing and freezing small bags, I guess, with a better vacuum sealer. Except I am getting lazy at my advanced age, and vacuum sealing 40 bags at a sitting is a pain in the bu*. Maybe I will go the small single dose test tube route

Anyway tompoland I do find informative that you have found that freezing and then defrosting beans degrades viscosity and flavor. Conversely my online reading (such as the taste test on HB) indicates that there is no impact. I guess that I will need to complete my own taste tests, as you have.

        JHCCoffee have you done a blind tasting with frozen and non frozen beans to make sure you can actually taste the “benefit”?

        The coffee world is full of ritual and process in search of the best shot. Freezing, vacuum sealing etc will definitely cost you time and effort. Whereas you only night be able to taste the benefit.

        I’ve played around and on balance have settled on only freezing coffee if it’ll be more than 6 weeks from roast date before I’ll drink it (pretty much only emergency decaf for guests). Otherwise I just keep in a dark air tight container.

            hornbyben have you done a blind tasting with frozen and non frozen beans to make sure you can actually taste the “benefit”?

            Good point/idea! I was/am relying on the studies/tests I had read, and personal pallet. However I will (when I have a moment) try some blind tasting. Currently just working to get comfortable with my new NZ.

            tompoland and all: For those that are freezing their beans and grinding from frozen (or others), has anyone tried or used plastic or glass tubes for storage of single doses? I recall seeing one pundit using plastic centrifuge tubes. I’ve also heard of folks using plastic specimen tubes. They would need to be sized to hold 16 to 20 grams, without airspace, and have an air/liquid tight screw on cap. I did once buy a set of glass tubes with corks on Amazon, but returned them as they would take up too much room in our kitchen freezer, which would make my non-espresso (Kurig fan) wife unhappy.

            If you do use some kind of tube, please let me know how many grams of beans fit in the tube (right to the top). Please feel free to post a picture and a purchase link, if you have time/interest in doing so.

                tompoland Sorry to say that my experience of thawing frozen beans is that it produces less than optimal espresso. It loses viscosity and flavor. But as I always say, try it and see what your experience is, you may come to a different conclusion.

                Curious about other folks experiences on this? Are others also noticing a loss of viscosity and flavor, when freezing and then thawing a well sealed bag of beans. I had been relying on vacuum sealing and freezing 100g bags of beans. I then leave the package out overnight to thaw and warm up, so that there is no moisture formed.

                  I’ve had inconsistent results. As in: with some coffees, everything seems to work OK; with others, there is definitely a loss of viscosity and taste (and with one in particular I keep getting the grinder stalling as it clumps!). However, it is only the second/third time that I try freezing for each of those, so I wouldn’t put too much store in my observations.

                    CoyoteOldMan I’ve had inconsistent results. As in: with some coffees, everything seems to work OK; with others, there is definitely a loss of viscosity and taste (and with one in particular I keep getting the grinder stalling as it clumps!). However, it is only the second/third time that I try freezing for each of those, so I wouldn’t put too much store in my observations.

                    Thanks CoM.

                    I unfortunately can only drink decaf. Any thoughts on the impacts of freezing and thawing decaf?

                    Any differences in freezing and thawing decaf light, vs medium vs dark roasts?

                    Any experiences on the above?

                        JHCCoffee Thanks CoM.

                        I unfortunately can only drink decaf. Any thoughts on the impacts of freezing and thawing decaf?

                        Any differences in freezing and thawing decaf light, vs medium vs dark roasts?

                        Any experiences on the above?

                        The decaf beans are always kept in the freezer in a Jam jar, whose capacity is about 100g. We take some out and the jar goes back to the freezer. I have neither seen any deterioration in the performance nor done any blind testing.

                        These days, the standard beans are Vac-ed, poured into a double dose canisters and kept in the cup board.

                            JHCCoffee So what I may do is load the jars with only the dose that I plan to consistently use in my NZ (say 16.5g) and then freeze the jars. The only issue is that there will be more air (O2) in the jars, with the staling of the beans slowed by the freezing. Will the extra O2 be a problem?

                            I think you are probably over thinking this. As long as the Niche can be used to grind from frozen, I would grind, if I were you. Ensure, the beans are not wet.

                            How long does a jar last? I have used the 100g for even 2 weeks without any issues. I have another small jar of standard coffee that is exclusively reserved for my daughter. It’s been in the freezer for a little over a month.

                            Before using vac for the standard coffee, I have, like @tompoland, ground from frozen (100g bottle) for a long time. I didn’t see any performance issues.

                                LMSC The standard beans are Vac-ed, poured into a double dose canisters and kept in the cup board.

                                Thanks LMSC. Quite curious about that setup. How many grams of beans does it hold? How does it get vacuumed? What seals it? How many do you have?

                                This sounds quite ideal. Might you have a name, picture or link. Might I ask about the cost.

                                • LMSC replied to this.

                                    LMSC I think you are probably over thinking this

                                    Its my nature. I’m a commercial real estate consultant but an analyst at heart. Solving espresso is right up my over thinking alley 🧐🤔💭. In my world, identifying and successfully solving a problem is great fun. 😀

                                        JHCCoffee

                                        You may shop a cheaper one. Plenty of Black Friday Sales are on at the moment.

                                        Bonsenkitchen Vacuum Sealer with Built-in Cutter & Roll Bag Storage, Lightweight for Dry and Moist Food Fresh Preservation, Vacuum Roll Bags & Hose Included, VS3802 (Black) https://amzn.eu/d/aNfxgBG

                                        Bonsenkitchen Vacuum Food Sealer Rolls Bags, 2 Packs 20 × 600 cm Storage Bags (Total 12 m), BPA Free, Heavy-Duty Commercial Customized Size Food Bags for Food Storage and Sous Vide Cooking, VB3813 https://amzn.eu/d/iZEV3mc

                                        Cut to a relevant size, seal one end, put the beans in and use the vac and seal. You have dry and moist feature. We use the moist feature to avoid bricking the beans.

                                          JHCCoffee Any thoughts on the impacts of freezing and thawing decaf?

                                          For what’s worth… I bought some decaf and kept in the freezer, inside the coffee bag it came in, depleted of air inside and with another bag on the outside. When I want a decaf I simply take 18g from the bag and use it. It does the trick as I maybe have a decaf every month.

                                          As far as I can tell, I also have not noticed any degradation of the beans compared to the first time I had them out of the bag previous to freezing. But saying that I don’t really rate it and it just tastes like a dark roasted coffee.

                                          One interesting point to note however, is that the pour starts fast, but then slows really right down for the 2/3s remaining. if I take the beans out of the freezer, and wrap in cling film and let it thaw for 20 minutes, I don’t have that effect.

                                            If you must freeze coffee, which I don’t recommend, as I feel it adds nothing and possibly detracts from the flavour. It’s probably best to freeze it into portions you would use in a week and then remove those weekly portions from the freezer, allow them to fully come up to room temperature and use for the week.

                                            Contact me

                                            I vacuum and freeze my excess coffee in roughly daily portions. Normally remove at night so they thaw and move to dosed vials next day with any excess to vacuum container.

                                            mailto:kafar@btinternet.com

                                            I noticed an interesting potential trend. I’ve lately been keeping my decaf beans frozen in mini mason jars with flip up lids. The ones that clamp down to create a seal. These beans had been earlier (and quickly) transferred from a somewhat larger (say 100 ml) vacuum sealed and frozen bag to the mini mason jars.

                                            However the jars hold about 40g of beans, which means that when I open the jar to remove a single dose of beans, air enters and moisture forms. So I was/am concerned about impacts of this air and moisture on taste. This was/is the topic of this post.

                                            I’ve recently noticed that the body, strength and flavor of my shots has been declining over the past few days. And I’ve had to grind finer and finer, to keep the same flow/time. Sure sounds like staling to me. But apparently freezing is supposed to dramatically slow the staling process.

                                            While this decline could be to other causes, such as the settling in of my new NZ, my spider sense tells me its staling. I’ve kept the sale recipe. Yet the shot taste and cappuccino taste declined. I had pretty good tasting shots a few days ago (fuller body and mouthfeel, decent strength, some interesting and tasty flavours and good length); this lasted for 4 shots. Then the decline started. Grinding finer isn’t helping.

                                            Does this sound like staling? Its not supposed to be happening….:

                                            Btw, I do like the workflow of single dose bottles or bags. So I’ve just bought a box of 20 mini jars that are square and hold 17 grams. They are sealed by a cork. On Amazon for only $25 CDN. We’ll see how they work out. Otherwise I’m back to vacuum sealing 20 or so minibags per pound and freezing these.

                                              DavecUK definitely think it’s stealing and possibly changes caused by freezing

                                              I do think it’s time for me to do some personal taste tests: using the same coffee, same recipe, vacuum sealed single dose bags: frozen bags vs not frozen, and see what my non-expert taste tells me. The various studies that I read say it’s fine to freeze and then defrost beans, as long as you let them defrost and warm, before unsealing. Other studies crow about the benefits of grinding from frozen.

                                              Time to give my personal taste buds a whirl.

                                                7 days later

                                                Grinding from Frozen Vs Unfrozen Update

                                                I have been running a series of tests, using the same beans, same grind, same dose, same basket, same temperature, same pre-infusion, same brew ratio. Just grind from unfrozen vs frozen. The beans were stored in very small sealed single shot jars.

                                                I have done 4 sets of paired shots thus far, over a number of days. In virtually every case, the frozen shots ran significantly faster. Like 15 seconds faster!

                                                And …. every ground from frozen shot had slightly but noticeable less body and less strength than the ground from unfrozen shots. And the ground from frozen shots were noticeably more bland.

                                                I then poured two sets of unfrozen vs frozen shots, but went to a one number finer grind on my NZ for the ground from frozen shots. In both cases, the flow times were close to the same.

                                                And in both cases, the ground from unfrozen shots had somewhat more body and strength. And the ground from frozen shots comparatively tasted a tad bland.

                                                Conclusion: From this very unscientific test. I prefer the taste of ground from unfrozen shots.

                                                Other Changes

                                                I’ve also just now been changing a couple of things in my dose and distribution. I improved my WDT technique to use the small circle moves that Lance Hedrick demonstrated in his video, which eliminated the holes that I frequently seen in the top of my puck.

                                                I also tried 18.0g in my 18g IMS basket (see headspace analysis below), using beans that have not been frozen, with better WDT technique. All while maintaining the same brew ratio of 1:1.5.

                                                The Result: Good body, good strength, decent flavour emerging and decent length; my best tasting shot (with my Lelit E and NZ) to date.

                                                Getting there.

                                                Might pop in my IMS screen and grind finer, just to drive me nuts 🤪

                                                And Headspace

                                                I used calipers to check the headroom that I have, using my IMS 18g basket on my Lelit E, and my current City Roast decaf blend. I measured that there is 9.5 mm from the top of my basket rim to the bottom of the flange on my bottomless portafilter. I also noticed that the top of the spiral that holds the portafilter on my Lelit E is even with the screen. So a fully tamped puck that is 9.5 mm below the rim of my basket will touch the surface of the Lelit E screen. Or so it seems.

                                                Accordingly, if I add 2.0 mm (the thickness of a Canadian nickel) for headspace, the top of my fully tamped puck would need to be 11.5 mm below the top of my basket rim.

                                                As my basket has a 22.1 mm interior depth, my puck depth (top to bottom) should ideally be 10.6 mm. Supposedly.

                                                Interestingly, if I load this basket with 18g, I get: about 10.3 mm of puck depth and 2.3 mm of headroom. Give or take.

                                                So maybe IMS designed their 18g basket to fit 18g and allow for sufficient headspace. Duh 🙄

                                                Why all this faf? Just wanted to see how much headspace I was getting. I’ve been dosing 16.5g in my 18g basket, in order to allow for sufficient headspace. I now realize that I can easily dose 18g, and probably still get sufficient headspace.