I had bought a Gaggia Classic (2012 or 2014 model I think it is), with all the necessary mods already in place (PID, OPV fitted, Rancilio steam wand). For a while I used it regularly but then I put it away and used my bean to cup exclusively. Recently went to my cousin's house who has a Sage Barista Express and he made me coffee (Union Roasted Christmas blend, Baked Apple, Cinnamon, Cocoa notes). It tasted miles better than what the bean to cup produces, not a surprise. What was a complete surprise though was it looked like it would be awful tasting. Shot ran really quickly, water, and he had absolutely no clue about ratios. That gave me an incentive to dig my Gaggia out again. Recently bought the cheap single dose SPTK 38 grinder based on Dave's review of it, to use with the Gaggia. I'm pulling decent ratio (1-2.5), in about 30 seconds. Liquid pours after about 7 seconds. But it tastes meh. I've tried various different adjustments, sometimes I get a nice result, sometimes not. What I have noticed consistently is that the temperature on the PID display drops mid shot. But this drop varies from shot to shot. Sometimes 1-2 degrees, sometimes 3 degrees, sometimes the drop occurs slowly, sometimes quickly. When I bought this Gaggia, it was always only as a stepping stone to a better espresso machine. Recently I've been eyeing up the Lelit Mara X2. Would I get better results with the Lelit?

Not a Gaggia user so others may chip in but I don't think a 2-3c decrease in pid temp is particularly out of the ordinary. I'd also guess it's not what's at fault here but either way more info would be helpful. It would be helpful to hear what about it tastes bad and what type of beans you're using. And what starting temp are your brewing at?

The beans are Union Roasted, Christmas blend, which they state as medium roast - certainly doesn't look dark. I started with 96degC (I saw this drop to 93 at one point) but then adjust it to 95 (with the hope it will settle between 93-94). Initially I was aiming for 1:2 ration in 25-30sec but then I updosed, grind slightly coarser, and increased the dose (that's what one of the espresso help guides I read indicated based on what I was tasting). What I was tasting was no sweetness at all, struggling to taste the notes indicated, and it tasted under extracted (sour). I first tried grinding finer (only a notch to start with) but then that made it taste more bitter, I never got the sweetness. That when I decided to get help from online guides (regarding how to adjust based on what you are tasting). My very first started was 14g in, aiming for 28-30g out, in 30 seconds. What I have no eventually ended up with is 15.5g in, 43g out, 23 seconds and that has been the closest to tasting with some sweetness and closer resemblance to the indicated notes. I'm going to keep the 15.5g in, go half a notch finer for my next one and aim for 45g out, maybe take it to 26ish seconds I think. I'm not sure if that was at all helpful 🙅🏻♂️

@"DrForinor"#p33271 the temp registered on the pid doesn’t always reflect what’s measured at the portafilter for small single boilers. In the manual of my Ito mod there is some scace data on a Rancilio Silvia showing that with no heating during the shot the temperature measured by the pid dropped from 94-88°C, but the scace (I.e. puck temp) rose to 87°C over the first 11s and was then flat for the rest of the shot (if you’re interested then download the “leva! 2.0 for Ito” from http://projectcaffe.bplaced.net/downloads.html, and look in the firmware manual page 57). On the flip side if you can’t disable heating during a shot and the PID is kicking the element on to compensate for the incoming cold water, then you can end up with the water being too hot, especially as the water outlet pipe is usually quite close to the element. The piping also heats up so there is less cooling. The Ito manual stated they measured a 3°C increase in temperature from this effect. In summary, if you can’t disable heating during the shot you could try changing the set point and seeing if that helps. Or perhaps the beans are just meh.

@"DrForinor"#p33276 do the beans have a roast date? If they’re a few months old that won’t help either

The roast date on the bag is 1st Nov 2022

@"DrForinor"#p33280 on the older end then, but not terrible. I usually try to drink all my coffee in the 2 - 6 week post roast window

@"hornbyben"#p33281 What do you do with beans that might be older than 6 weeks? This was the reason for me updosing, and increasing yield (it's what my search revealed for older beans), and it certainly improved it for me.

@"DrForinor"#p33282 accept poorer flavour if I end up in that position, and try to buy fresher or drink quicker next time. If I know I definitely won’t be able to (like decaf that I keep in for guests) then I freeze them. Most decent roasters will send you coffee less than a week from roast (assuming Royal Mail don’t take forever to actually get it to you).

I used to set my PID to 102 degrees to allow for the tail off in temp. You could try that to see if the flavour improves or not.

@"Jollybean"#p33293 Thank you, I'll try that. Given the drawbacks that still exist in a Gaggia with a PID, (and keeping in mind that I always knew the Gaggia would only be a stepping stone), would the Lelit Mara X2 be a worthy upgrade? I don't steam much milk. Usually make my espresso, add water from the kettle as much as I need them add milk straight from the fridge. But I want a machine that will give me consistency without me worrying about it or having to make unnecessary adjustments for the lack of consistency.

Gaggia woes

CoyoteOldMan

DrForinor I’ve seen a few posts online about people having problems with their Elizabeth. I understand it’s always the bad cases that are published on the internet and usually the good ones don’t get the publicity they deserve, but I just wanted my mind put to rest, to make sure it’s a sound investment

The best place to ask for that is users, not sellers… apart from any vested interest, they also tend to see the ‘bad cases’, as those are the ones they get asked for help on, or do repairs on.

A quick search on the forum here does not seem to show too many issues - other than the recent “OPV getting stuck”, which should be factory fixed on anything ordered now - and quite a few satisfied users, some of whom have already posted here.

DrForinor

CoyoteOldMan

Agreed that there’s obviously going to be a bias on their part. But considering they have a better idea on how many are sold, versus how many have issues, would give a decent idea?

Going by their reputation from what I’ve heard, I’m trusting them to be truthful. Perhaps that’s a little naive?

CoyoteOldMan

DrForinor I don’t think it’s particularly naive, and they have a great rep - it’s just that I don’t think any single seller sells nearly as many as would be necessary to get a statistical view of ‘reliability’, and I don’t know to what extent they track them. You run the risk of getting an ‘impression’ to which you attribute more weight than it’s worth.

DrForinor

CoyoteOldMan

Yup, fair point. Maybe I’ll skip that question when I talk to them 🙂

DrForinor

Cuprajake Eureka scales, do you have a link

I use the yuaga scales there cheap and reliable

I’m just going to get a silicone grip mat to use on my Yagua scales, if my coffee glass continues to move about with the Eliabeth.

Yorkie_Al

I bought a Lelit Elizabeth about 6 months ago from Bella Barista. The OPV is set out of the box at about 9.5-10 bar. I haven’t seen any need to adjust it. I have one of the coffee buttons configured to deliver about 3 seconds preinfusfion using the pump to gradually increase pressure to 9 bar. The other is set for 4 seconds preinfusion using steam to hold the pressure at 3 bar for approximately 6 more seconds then up to 9 bar for the rest of the shot. I can switch off the steam boiler and alter the way the second button works at the press of a button on the controller. I drink mainly espresso or long black so if I’m not using the steam preinfusion I keep it switched off for economy. If I want steam milk it takes minutes to be ready from switching the steam boiler on. The machine has had its default controller settings adjusted according to the documents that Dave C has produced and I’ve been extremely happy with how the machine has worked without me needing to play around with it.I am constantly changing the coffee beans I use and have found I get really good drinks by just adjusting the grinder settings (Niche Zero) and keeping the machine set - only changing one variable if at all possible. Life is too short to mess around seeking perfection in a drink if what I’m getting is good. Bottom line is I would happily get another Elizabeth if the one I have failed although I don’t expect that to happen anytime soon. I also drink coffee using other methods (see signature) but that’s not relevant to this topic.

DrForinor

Yorkie_Al

Wow, that’s great feedback, thanks!!!

Cuprajake

The Liz was nearly on my shelf

Yorkie_Al

I should have also said I have the machine powered through a smart switch to switch on about 30 minutes before I’m likely to use it although it takes just under 20 minutes to actually be ready to deliver a shot. If I want to make multiple shots, the brew boiler is back up to temperature before I’ve had chance to fill and tamp the portafilter basket ( single dosing the grinder takes the time). The portafilter is an interesting design. Whilst some may not care for the dual spout looks, the handle is shaped so the portafilter sits with the basket horizontally on a level surface to aid tamping. Steaming is great when I use it as it is easy to control the amount of steam going into the milk and produce really smooth micro foam. Unfortunately I’m absolutely rubbish at latte art so I can’t show off any of my results! I backflush the machine frequently both with water and cleaner and also remove the showehead to give it a good clean. Both tasks are easy to do if you follow Dave C’s youTube videos. I don’t use the Lelit water filter as I live in a very soft water area and can see no sign of any scaling (my kettle has been in use for nearly 3 years and has no trace of scaling on its heating element). If I lived in a harder water area I would definitely use some form of water treatment to reduce or prevent scaling.

DrForinor

Yorkie_Al Appreciate all this info 🙂

Uncletits

DrForinor Honestly the only thing I’m not mad on is how it looks

I’m the opposite and don’t like the “transport cafe” look in a modern looking kitchen - think it’s all the wannabe engineers who are actually behind a desk all week 🤡

I had an issue with a leaking boiler fitting but BB were brilliant and it was sent and returned back very quickly

Paired with a great grinder they are an excellent product @MediumRoastSteam has got great knowledge of how to get the best from the machine and is someone to follow

DrForinor

Uncletits Great to hear that you’re happy with your machine. Any tips from you? Which grinder are you using?

I had just ordered the STPK 38 from BB so that’s what I’m pairing it with.

Uncletits

With this machine I’ve had the DF64 and now a Niche - also have an Osmio for the water

DrForinor

Uncletits Can you taste the difference between the two grinders?

Uncletits

I always use fairly dark beans and milk so it hides a lot

For me the superior bit for the Niche is the workflow and cleaning which are really easy

DrForinor

Uncletits Sorry, which grinder are you referring to that is superior?

Uncletits

Edited 🤡

DrForinor

You guys are gonna think I’ve lost my friggin marbles here.

The more I’m reading about espresso machines, the more I’m certain it has to be a dual boiler machine. The more I think about it, I’m doubting myself if the Elizabeth will actually be my “final machine” - when I knew I’ll be upgrading after I bought my Gaggia, I never imagined I would go “mid range” but thought to myself I’ll go higher end.

I can force space on the kitchen table (I hate to do it, but if I have to then I will) but now I’m looking at the Profitec 700. I first started looking at the Profitec 600 but if I’m paying that amount of money and I want it to be my final machine then I want a rotary pump. Yes I know the Lelit Bianca is the very obvious choice but two things to note;

In my end machine, I never wanted knobs for the steam wand, always the joystick style
I hate the setup of the tank being outside the machine - that would forever really p*ss me off - and I can’t plumb it in the place I’m in right now. I might be able to in the future but I don’t know if/when that will ever happen

I’ve ruled the ACS Minima out, the aesthetics on it just don’t sit right with me.

What are your thoughts? Am I being silly? Any other machine that I should consider?

Cuprajake

That’s a £1000 jump right there

Only you can decide there lol much of a muchness the Bianca is the best of the bunch as its got more features, but if you don’t like it then that that.

DrForinor

The price was not really high on my priority list, I just wanted a better machine. But I have a little feeling that the itch to upgrade to what I always had in mind will always be there, so I’m thinking it might be better just to make that big jump now and forget the mid-range machine.

The Bianca has more features than the Profitec 700? Which features does it have that the 700 doesn’t?

CoyoteOldMan

DrForinor Which features does it have that the 700 doesn’t

Assuming you get a 700 with the flow profile already fitted (it’s an option), largely around the electronics. I would also consider the separable tank a feature, but you clearly don’t.

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