I had bought a Gaggia Classic (2012 or 2014 model I think it is), with all the necessary mods already in place (PID, OPV fitted, Rancilio steam wand). For a while I used it regularly but then I put it away and used my bean to cup exclusively. Recently went to my cousin's house who has a Sage Barista Express and he made me coffee (Union Roasted Christmas blend, Baked Apple, Cinnamon, Cocoa notes). It tasted miles better than what the bean to cup produces, not a surprise. What was a complete surprise though was it looked like it would be awful tasting. Shot ran really quickly, water, and he had absolutely no clue about ratios. That gave me an incentive to dig my Gaggia out again. Recently bought the cheap single dose SPTK 38 grinder based on Dave's review of it, to use with the Gaggia. I'm pulling decent ratio (1-2.5), in about 30 seconds. Liquid pours after about 7 seconds. But it tastes meh. I've tried various different adjustments, sometimes I get a nice result, sometimes not. What I have noticed consistently is that the temperature on the PID display drops mid shot. But this drop varies from shot to shot. Sometimes 1-2 degrees, sometimes 3 degrees, sometimes the drop occurs slowly, sometimes quickly. When I bought this Gaggia, it was always only as a stepping stone to a better espresso machine. Recently I've been eyeing up the Lelit Mara X2. Would I get better results with the Lelit?

Not a Gaggia user so others may chip in but I don't think a 2-3c decrease in pid temp is particularly out of the ordinary. I'd also guess it's not what's at fault here but either way more info would be helpful. It would be helpful to hear what about it tastes bad and what type of beans you're using. And what starting temp are your brewing at?

The beans are Union Roasted, Christmas blend, which they state as medium roast - certainly doesn't look dark. I started with 96degC (I saw this drop to 93 at one point) but then adjust it to 95 (with the hope it will settle between 93-94). Initially I was aiming for 1:2 ration in 25-30sec but then I updosed, grind slightly coarser, and increased the dose (that's what one of the espresso help guides I read indicated based on what I was tasting). What I was tasting was no sweetness at all, struggling to taste the notes indicated, and it tasted under extracted (sour). I first tried grinding finer (only a notch to start with) but then that made it taste more bitter, I never got the sweetness. That when I decided to get help from online guides (regarding how to adjust based on what you are tasting). My very first started was 14g in, aiming for 28-30g out, in 30 seconds. What I have no eventually ended up with is 15.5g in, 43g out, 23 seconds and that has been the closest to tasting with some sweetness and closer resemblance to the indicated notes. I'm going to keep the 15.5g in, go half a notch finer for my next one and aim for 45g out, maybe take it to 26ish seconds I think. I'm not sure if that was at all helpful 🙅🏻♂️

@"DrForinor"#p33271 the temp registered on the pid doesn’t always reflect what’s measured at the portafilter for small single boilers. In the manual of my Ito mod there is some scace data on a Rancilio Silvia showing that with no heating during the shot the temperature measured by the pid dropped from 94-88°C, but the scace (I.e. puck temp) rose to 87°C over the first 11s and was then flat for the rest of the shot (if you’re interested then download the “leva! 2.0 for Ito” from http://projectcaffe.bplaced.net/downloads.html, and look in the firmware manual page 57). On the flip side if you can’t disable heating during a shot and the PID is kicking the element on to compensate for the incoming cold water, then you can end up with the water being too hot, especially as the water outlet pipe is usually quite close to the element. The piping also heats up so there is less cooling. The Ito manual stated they measured a 3°C increase in temperature from this effect. In summary, if you can’t disable heating during the shot you could try changing the set point and seeing if that helps. Or perhaps the beans are just meh.

@"DrForinor"#p33276 do the beans have a roast date? If they’re a few months old that won’t help either

The roast date on the bag is 1st Nov 2022

@"DrForinor"#p33280 on the older end then, but not terrible. I usually try to drink all my coffee in the 2 - 6 week post roast window

@"hornbyben"#p33281 What do you do with beans that might be older than 6 weeks? This was the reason for me updosing, and increasing yield (it's what my search revealed for older beans), and it certainly improved it for me.

@"DrForinor"#p33282 accept poorer flavour if I end up in that position, and try to buy fresher or drink quicker next time. If I know I definitely won’t be able to (like decaf that I keep in for guests) then I freeze them. Most decent roasters will send you coffee less than a week from roast (assuming Royal Mail don’t take forever to actually get it to you).

I used to set my PID to 102 degrees to allow for the tail off in temp. You could try that to see if the flavour improves or not.

@"Jollybean"#p33293 Thank you, I'll try that. Given the drawbacks that still exist in a Gaggia with a PID, (and keeping in mind that I always knew the Gaggia would only be a stepping stone), would the Lelit Mara X2 be a worthy upgrade? I don't steam much milk. Usually make my espresso, add water from the kettle as much as I need them add milk straight from the fridge. But I want a machine that will give me consistency without me worrying about it or having to make unnecessary adjustments for the lack of consistency.

Gaggia woes

dndrich

DrForinor You will come to like the appearance. It has a modern vibe that will grow on you. And it is so nice to use you will love that too.

When you get it put some cheap felt stick-on pads on the feet. Then you can slide the machine around on the bench for filling the reservoir. So much easier. And, make sure to read the review and advanced tips from our mentor DaveC. Great stuff he has on that machine. It gives you a head start on all other machines.

DrForinor

dndrich

I already have in mind to watch Dave’s videos on it, it’s first on the list 😄

dndrich

DrForinor He also has a number of long documents with a wealth of information. The links should be available somewhere on this site or the youtube videos. A must read.

DavecUK

dndrich I have decided to add some knowledbase articles with links to them

DrForinor

I currently use IMS baskets. Will sticking with these be fine, or is it a worthy upgrade to the VST baskets?

Cuprajake

Nah you’ll be fine not worth changing for

DrForinor

Excellent, thank you.

I’m pretty sure I have everything I need - I use it all with the Gaggia anyway.

My only concern is, if I do decide to use the standard portafilter that comes with it, how do I tamp? Is there enough space behind the spouts to rest a little on the worktop, or do I need a “tamping station”? (I really find that spout design horrible).

Cuprajake

Pretty sure the lelit of has a flat spout so it rests on the work top.

DrForinor

DavecUK Specifically to the Elizabeth? I did have a look but I couldn’t find it.

Cuprajake

When do you plan to order?

DrForinor

Cuprajake

I am going to call Bella Barista now and place the order, just after a couple of clarifications from them 🙂

DrForinor

Just called them, but their phone lines are now closed, opening up on 28th Jan.

Cuprajake

Meh

What did you want to know?

They have really good email response usually

DrForinor

Cuprajake

In their automated message they said they will get back to emails on the 28th also, just bad timing I guess haha.

What I wanted clarified:

I’ve seen a few posts online about people having problems with their Elizabeth. I understand it’s always the bad cases that are published on the internet and usually the good ones don’t get the publicity they deserve, but I just wanted my mind put to rest, to make sure it’s a sound investment
Wanted to ask them to check that the OPV is at 9 bars. I understand it can be done at home, but the last thing I want to do is go around taking the machine apart before I’ve even made a coffee
Wanted to check about my portafilter concern, to see if tamping will be an issue or not
Wanted to ask about the Eureka digital scales, and if decent was going to purchase them as well

CoyoteOldMan

DrForinor I’ve seen a few posts online about people having problems with their Elizabeth. I understand it’s always the bad cases that are published on the internet and usually the good ones don’t get the publicity they deserve, but I just wanted my mind put to rest, to make sure it’s a sound investment

The best place to ask for that is users, not sellers… apart from any vested interest, they also tend to see the ‘bad cases’, as those are the ones they get asked for help on, or do repairs on.

A quick search on the forum here does not seem to show too many issues - other than the recent “OPV getting stuck”, which should be factory fixed on anything ordered now - and quite a few satisfied users, some of whom have already posted here.

Cuprajake

Eureka scales, do you have a link

I use the yuaga scales there cheap and reliable

DrForinor

Cuprajake

https://bellabarista.co.uk/products/eureka-digital-scales-with-bluetooth?_pos=1&_psq=eureka&_ss=e&_v=1.0

I have the Yagua scales also, I do like them but I find when I start the shot, my glass slides on the scale. Perhaps that’s an issue in the Gaggia due to the vibration, but less so in the Elizabeth?

It’s either between the Eureka scales of the Timemore ones.

DrForinor

Cuprajake Eureka scales, do you have a link

I use the yuaga scales there cheap and reliable

I’m just going to get a silicone grip mat to use on my Yagua scales, if my coffee glass continues to move about with the Eliabeth.

DrForinor

CoyoteOldMan

Agreed that there’s obviously going to be a bias on their part. But considering they have a better idea on how many are sold, versus how many have issues, would give a decent idea?

Going by their reputation from what I’ve heard, I’m trusting them to be truthful. Perhaps that’s a little naive?

CoyoteOldMan

DrForinor I don’t think it’s particularly naive, and they have a great rep - it’s just that I don’t think any single seller sells nearly as many as would be necessary to get a statistical view of ‘reliability’, and I don’t know to what extent they track them. You run the risk of getting an ‘impression’ to which you attribute more weight than it’s worth.

DrForinor

CoyoteOldMan

Yup, fair point. Maybe I’ll skip that question when I talk to them 🙂

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