Moving my last lever related post from here: Lever Vs Pump vs Lever to the below. So … based upon the benefits I’m hearing from this Forum, I’m starting to think about a lever machine. However I do not have the kitchen counter space or budget for two espresso machines (one pump, one lever); that would draw well more than rolling eyes 🙄from my wife. More like 😡 I am the sole espresso machine user in the household; I rarely have more than 2 guests that are keen to have an espresso drink. So I don’t need a machine that can produce multiple shots, quickly. Moreover I have yet to produce an espresso only shot that I have enjoyed. They’ve been good enough for (and sometimes delicious in) milk drinks, but that’s as best as I’ve done. If a lever can help me up my espresso game (compared to what I can achieve with my Lelit E) and pour 2 shots for my before work AM coffees at a reasonable pace, I’m all in. IF I were to head down this path (there would need to be significant net benefits to do so) I would need to sell my current Lelit E and then spend more or less the same amount of money as one would today pay for a new Lelit - say 1,200 GBP or so. I have my daughter’s wedding to pay this year so major machine upgrade costs are just not in the cards. I know very little about lever machines but think I would need the following features: Spring lever ?? Sufficient water reservoir Brew water and/or group head heating and temperature control Accurate pressure gauge Temperature gauge Steam boiler and wand ?? Do not know at all what is achievable within my budget range. I’d also like to be able to keep/reuse my 58.5 mm baskets and tampers if possible. @tompoland advises that this is probably not possible. Oh well. Any thoughts on pros and cons of going down this path, and suggestions or links to further reading are welcome. And what machines with what features should I be looking at?

See my response on the other thread.

JHCCoffee IF I were to head down this path (there would need to be significant net benefits to do so Despite all the magic and mystique surrounding those machines, a lever is no silver bullet - just be mindful of that to avoid disappointments. If I were you… I’d visit a retailer, or a friend, or someone who has a machine you are looking to buy and try it out first. Easily said than done, I know. Also, for what’s worth… I had a Gaggia Classic, Profitec 700, 2 La Pavoni(s) and the Elizabeth, in that order over the past 10 years or so. The Elizabeth is the one I’ve kept the longest. I do fancy an upgrade, but when I look out there for what the alternatives are, up to the £2k mark (so approx. twice the price of the Elizabeth) the only machine I’d buy is the Bianca. But then you have the E61 which no doubt is a great group, but it has its disadvantages compared to the simplicity of the Elizabeth’s ring group. My two pence worth anyway.

I replied in the other thread Levers are great, I wouldn’t push to finance one if it’s not suitable at the moment I’d wait for the new version of the Evo to drop, No offence to the nurri but the Evo has superior temp control, which I believe is what mate it so good coupled with that group. Any other lever just falls short unless you double the price for a kvdw. Some people just don’t like neat espresso. Beans play a massive part as does grinder Edited to say I was happy with my bianca but a well priced used Evo came up.

JHCCoffee . I have my daughter’s wedding to pay this year so major machine upgrade costs are just not in the cards. Just keep the Elizabeth - that way you get to keep your cajones too

JHCCoffee Moreover I have yet to produce an espresso only shot that I have enjoyed. If you can’t produce a good espresso I’m not sure if upgrading the machine will be that more useful. I’d try different coffees first.

whinmoor85 I’d try different coffees first. Appreciate the advice. Now if you could put a decent decaf in the post to me, that would be awesome. 😁

I put myself on the mailing list for the Odyssey machine, and will watch it over the winter and spring. It does read and look like the ideal lever for me, and I like the $1k USD price point, if build is sufficient. I also have a setup at our family cottage (a Breville DuoPro machine that needs upgrading, and a Bartaza Sette grinder that needs repair); the Odyssey might be just the ticket; we’ll see. And … good news for me: a kind gentleman just gifted me a well used but still in good shape Niche Zero that will replace my cottage Bartaza. It arrives tomorrow. He’s acquired a large flat burr machine and didn’t need the NZ. This is great for me, as I had been hunting for a Niche for the cottage, but the pricing of gently used machines in Canada (or shipped from the US, after duties and taxes) was unrealistic relative to the cost of buying new with warranty.

JHCCoffee That’s a great score - very generous of him!

chlorox That’s a great score - very generous of him! He is a “minimalist” and was just looking to find the NZ a new home. As per my thank-you email back to him: Its refreshing to hear from a kind hearted espresso lover. Like a breath of fresh country air. There is just so much greed out there. Counter to that trend, I just gave away $300 worth of stuff that worked with my earlier Baratza Sette and Breville setup, along with some good advice (I hope) to help some young folks get going (I am 69 and appreciate the journey that they are going through). I probably could have used the money (it was a stretch for me to buy the Niche and Lelit Elizabeth after my earlier setup died; my wife still complains about it), but it was the right thing to do. PS I hark back to the pre-Covid days when I participated in a wine tasting group. Our collectively generous attitude was: a) be as generous as you can afford (as long as it’s interesting and contributes to the evenings theme); b) only consider what you paid for the wine when you bought it, not what it’s worth to today; c) life is too short to not drink good/great wine, d) you can’t drink your good cellar wine when you’re dead, e) its alot more enjoyable to drink good wine with others than alone, f) don’t take advantage of others generosity, so don’t bring or drink plonk. Everyone was exceedingly generous in what they brought. Well, there was one guy who mooched, but overall everyone was generous.

A fellow here in Canada is selling his advance order for the Odyssey Argos lever machine. He wants “more than cost”, which in my view is nutty (harks back to the days when the NZs were coming out, and were over hyped). Cost is currently $850 US, but the machine has yet to be released or reviewed. He is selling because he bought another currently available lever machine. Would you spend your hard earned cash to buy out his position? If so, what would you pay? Fyi, I am only pondering this because I need a setup for my cottage. And I had the good fortune to be given a used NZ (at no cost other than shipping from the US), so that has saved some money. Fyi,it has 30 kg through it and has some scratches but otherwise works well. Mind you, it had not been cleaned for 3 years, and was pretty gross inside 🤢! The burrs seem abit discolored but otherwise look ok. After calibration it flows just a tad faster than my new NZ, but the shots from my new vs this 3 year old unit taste pretty similar. So I will be selling my cottage Bartaza Sette 270 and Breville DuoPro and buy a replacement espresso machine, which could be a Lelit E (duplicating what I have in the City) or perhaps a Lever. Thoughts? My gut feel is to wait until this forum has reviewed the Odyssey. Still, I am curious as to whether you would take up this fellows offer and what you would pay him, given the remaining risks. Btw, I just saw another original NZ given away for free, to a student. They are great grinders but the hype is beginning to melt.

Lever Machine Ideas

Sham

LMSC Well yes, but can’t justify the cost at this point in time!

LMSC

Sham If you are drinking just one espresso a day, perhaps, a used hand grinder should do.

Sham

LMSC

Ernie1

I didn’t really consider a hand grinder previously, but it does make sense. Will clear up some kitchen space too. Anyone want to trade a SJ for a Kplus or C40 😁

Ernie1

Hand-grinder would indeed be ideal, there’ll be a C40 up for sale in the coming weeks, around £100 off rrp.

Amberale

I missed out on a V1.3 La Pavoni Euro this weekend.
Under $500 and beautiful condition. 😒

JHCCoffee

I was corresponding with the gent that offered and sold his Argo spot (to someone else). Negotiation being put aside, we got to chatting about options for me to test out a lever at low cost. He advised the following:

The direct lever Pavonis have a very full bodied flavour to then … Due to their small group size … 49-51mm … I fine this with any smaller group that the body is significantly enhanced … Have noticed this from 49-54mm … Wider Portafilter has a little more …. Flavor separation and cleanliness but lacks the warmth and full bodied flavour of smaller groups ..

And also he said:

I would strongly recommend a pavoni over a flair. The workflow is great. And you have a lot more variability in shot exploration because of the boiler preinfusion.

He recommends:

Europicola forsure. They are basically impossible to beat for the money.

What are your thoughts on his comments?

My purpose is to get my feet wet on levers; test the waters; to decide if I want to go that route, with an Argo or whatever. So I need something that will give me a solid sense of what the difference in espresso shot body, mouthfeel, strength, flavor, length will be. To guide an eventual purchase of a machine for my cottage, which might end up being a Lelit E or an undetermined lever.

So, I can buy a lightly used Flair Pro 2 for $260 CDN or a Europicolla for $600 CDN used. I will resell the unit once I am done testing out the concept of a lever. Would the Flair be sufficient to do meet my test the waters purpose? Or do I need better? If so, what?

The $260 CDN one just popped up on a local used goods site, and is 55% of new, so I’d need to jump on it.

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee - never owned a flair, but owned a Pavoni Pro and an Europiccola.

They are interesting machines, for sure. But, again, don’t expect it to be a silver bullet. In all honesty, I find the Elizabeth a lot better and easy to work with. But, again, no point in me saying all those things. If you really want to try it out, go for it. Otherwise, you’ll never know. In summary:

They overheat;
the first shot is always colder than the second shot. The experts amongst us say the second shot is always better then the first, but the third one will be too hot.
the steam wand is hard to work with. You’ll most likely need an aftermarket steam tip. I had many, of all shapes and sizes. He stock 3 hole one is useless for microfoam.
know what you are buying: there were many iterations of the machine over the years. Some have teflon piston, some have a group sleeve, some have a brass piston, some have an adjustable pressure stat, some don’t have a pressure stat. Some have a single switch, some have a dual switch. Through history, build quality has been varied as the company tries to cut costs.
unless the machine is in tiptop condition, be prepared to buy a group service kit and get your hands “dirty”.
don’t expect consistency from day one: until you work out the machine quirks, it will be an learning curve. Sometimes you’ll get a 32ml shot or longer, sometimes you’ll struggle to extract 28g. Sometimes this could be due to air in the group, sometimes the piston has unscrewed from the rod, sometimes it needs adjustment….
do check the condition of the machine, specially rust under the plastic drip tray catcher, but also under the base.
if you don’t have a gauge installed, you’ll never know what pressure you are extracting your shots at. Eventually you’ll develop muscle memory, you’ll figure out what a spongy pull feels like, or a knife through butter one. You’ll figure out what feels right. But if you don’t know… your guess is as good as mine.
in the past 5 years, there’s been lots of mods and accessories for them. Group fins, thermometers, group insulators, pressure gauges, all sorts.
I could keep going… some people swear blindly by them. I don’t disagree. They are great machines. Ultimately it depends what you want.

Once you get the hang of them, with some love, they will last a lifetime. Personally, for me, after a couple of years I got a little tired, sold them both and bought the Elizabeth.

Good luck!

tompoland

JHCCoffee Can I have first dibs on yours, if you decide to sell it after you evaluate it, if you decide it’s not for you but would still recommend it to me?

That is one carefully worded request! Sure thing.

I suspect shipping might be the killer though (I’m in Australia) and then there is my memory, or lack thereof 😬 so feel free to remind me when I post a review here.

Amberale

tompoland
Don’t forget the Voltage 230-115.
Although I have a vague memory that the Argos is electrically ambidextrous?
Non-Binary voltage?
Identifies as?

JHCCoffee

tompoland I suspect shipping might be the killer though (I’m in Australia) and then there is my memory, or lack thereof 😬 so feel free to remind me when I post a review here.

My son-in-law to be (well they’ve been living together for some 10 years and have given me a wonderful grandson) have wedding plans in August. He’s from a small town on the ocean near Perth; his family will be traveling from there to Vancouver Island for the wedding. Additionally they have many Whistler, BC friends from Oz, that travel to and from many parts of the country. They can carry it in their luggage or as an extra piece, which costs way way less than shipping. If you decide to sell it, if I decide to buy it and the timing works out.

tompoland

Amberale Argos is electrically ambidextrous

Good catch @Amberale. They are either 120v or 240 so that wouldn’t work @JHCCoffee

JHCCoffee

I can buy a lightly used Flair Pro 2 for $260 CDN or a Europicolla for $600 CDN used. I will resell the unit once I am done testing out the concept of a lever. Would the Flair be sufficient to meet my test the waters purpose? Or do I need better? If so, what?

The Flair Pro 2 just got posted on our local marketplace site, and the price is at 55% of retail, so I will pull the trigger on it tomorrow, IF it will suite my testing purposes. Conversely there is no point in doing that if I will not learn anything from using it. Don’t want to waste a whole lot of time, energy and beans for no good reason, especially as I pour about 18 to 22 or so shots a week, excluding sink shots.

tompoland

That model is an OK option but not ideal.

The problem with the non electric flair levers is temperature accuracy and stability. The barrel that holds the water needs to brought up to heat which can be done either by immersing it in a kettle/pot and bringing it to boil or pouring boiling water through a few times. You can buy a temperature strip for the barrel which helps. I’ve had a Flair Signature Pro 2 for travel but upgraded to a Flair 58 for that reason.

That’s a bit if faffing around but I had a lot of fun with it until the novelty wore off.

The other advantage with the newer Flair 58s is that you can pull back to back shots without having to take it apart.

The original Flair 58 had a few flaws: a bizarre 3 part power cable that blew up the heated group head when connected in the wrong sequence*, a hook that often failed to grab the bridge that pushed the plunger, and a loose cable connection with the group head. All three failed on mine but were rectified pronto and without fuss under warranty. (Plus you couldn’t pull back to back shots with the original.)

Sorry I didn’t think of those warnings before. Better late than never?

All of which is to say that if you get a used Flair 58 you’ll need to be aware of those imperfections. That said, whilst Flair won’t admit they were design faults (probably for liability reasons) they have been quick to offer upgrades for individual items at very reasonable prices.

Despite my frustrations with the Flair 58, I would still recommend it as the best bang for bucks way to dive into the world of Levers.

PS the Flair 58 and Flair Signature Pro 2 both come with pressure gauges which are worth having while learning the craft.

* since replaced with a two part cable which is better but still bizarre in that if you connect it in the right sequence it fries the group head the same as the 3 part cable did.

JHCCoffee

tompoland
Thanks for the complete reply on the Flair Pro 2 and the Flair 58. The gentleman who sold his Argo had this to say about levers:

I fine this with any smaller group that the body is significantly enhanced … Have noticed this from 49-54mm … Wider Portafilter has a little more …. Flavor separation and cleanliness but lacks the warmth and full bodied flavour of smaller groups .

Does this make sense?

Did you notice any difference in taste between the Signature Pro 2 and the 58?

tompoland

JHCCoffee no idea sorry.

I’ve never done side by side comparisons with levers (like I have with grinders) and that’s the only way I can come to reasonably solid conclusions. Same beans, same room temperature, same water temperature, back to back pulls, side by side sips, only one set per day.

I have pulled quite a few shots from 49mm, 54mm and 58mm baskets and they are all superb if everything else is on song. I currently have three levers with those sizes but I have them paired with different grinders so any comparison based on my daily habits wouln’t be valid because the grinders add a massive variable.

I wouldn’t pick a lever based on basket size but if I did it would be a 22g 54mm basket for two reasons. The first is purely sentimental; my original La San Marco sprung lever had that basket. The second reason is that I can pull what I would call a double ristretto, really slow ar around 1ml/sec and end up with 44g of delicious goop in the cup. Nectar from heaven.

I’m sure the same can be achieved with a 58mm basket but it doesn’t work so well (in terms of volume) with the 49mm.

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