JHCCoffee I’ve got an Argos coming and there are now enough people who saw it in Milan or have seen it in action at Odyssey HQ to suggest that it will perform well.

It depends of course on how much extra he is asking but he will probably sell it for a profit because orders are now closed until “sometime in Q1”. Given that the shipping of the Argos was originally slated for April 2022 and that we are still waiting, I’d take the “Q1” estimate with a pinch of salt.

Personally, I would not buy it if his asking price is OTT. I’d wait until orders open again although you would need to be comfortable with what may be a 3 - 6 month wait. I haven’t seen any indication on whether Ross has parts in stock for the second batch.

Also, it may be that you can pick one up second hand shortly after the first batch are shipped. This not a certainty of course but there are people like me, who simply want to try it, will offer them for sale a month or two after they arrive. And there are others who will try it and realize that they really didn’t want a lever after all, and they will sell soon afterwards too.

But if he/she would sell it at cost then I’d say go ahead and buy it.

In the meantime you could pick up a new or used Flair 58 and simply on-sell it if the reviews of the Argos indicates that its what you prefer.

      Ernie1 I only really drink one espresso a day in the mornings. No one else drinks espresso in the house. So I can’t really use a hopper or the push dosing thing as the beans and grinds will more than likely go stale. At that point I might as well buy pre-ground and keep it in the freezer to use. I was previously planning on designing a new single dose mod to fix the problems but my hands are tied at the moment!

      • LMSC replied to this.

          Sham You never considered Niche, did you?

          • Sham replied to this.

              tompoland This not a certainty of course but there are people like me, who simply want to try it, will offer them for sale a month or two after they arrive.

              Thanks for the excellent advice tompoland .

              I suspect that I may eventually want one, but it’s probably a good idea for me to wade into the lever water slowly and learn to swim with one. I’ll start looking for a Flair 58.

              I posted on HB about this as well (they have a long thread long running) and a fellow posted a very good reply point: scalpers should not be rewarded. I agree.

              Can I have first dibs on yours, if you decide to sell it after you evaluate it, if you decide it’s not for you but would still recommend it to me? 😁

                    What do forum members think of the Electra Micro Casa. It looks like a thing of beauty (very appropriate to a cottage). Electra

                      LMSC Well yes, but can’t justify the cost at this point in time!

                      • LMSC replied to this.

                          Sham If you are drinking just one espresso a day, perhaps, a used hand grinder should do.

                          • Sham replied to this.

                              Hand-grinder would indeed be ideal, there’ll be a C40 up for sale in the coming weeks, around £100 off rrp.

                              • Sham replied to this.

                                I missed out on a V1.3 La Pavoni Euro this weekend.
                                Under $500 and beautiful condition. 😒

                                LMSC

                                Ernie1

                                I didn’t really consider a hand grinder previously, but it does make sense. Will clear up some kitchen space too. Anyone want to trade a SJ for a Kplus or C40 😁

                                    I was corresponding with the gent that offered and sold his Argo spot (to someone else). Negotiation being put aside, we got to chatting about options for me to test out a lever at low cost. He advised the following:

                                    The direct lever Pavonis have a very full bodied flavour to then … Due to their small group size … 49-51mm … I fine this with any smaller group that the body is significantly enhanced … Have noticed this from 49-54mm … Wider Portafilter has a little more …. Flavor separation and cleanliness but lacks the warmth and full bodied flavour of smaller groups ..

                                    And also he said:

                                    I would strongly recommend a pavoni over a flair. The workflow is great. And you have a lot more variability in shot exploration because of the boiler preinfusion.

                                    He recommends:

                                    Europicola forsure. They are basically impossible to beat for the money.

                                    What are your thoughts on his comments?

                                    My purpose is to get my feet wet on levers; test the waters; to decide if I want to go that route, with an Argo or whatever. So I need something that will give me a solid sense of what the difference in espresso shot body, mouthfeel, strength, flavor, length will be. To guide an eventual purchase of a machine for my cottage, which might end up being a Lelit E or an undetermined lever.

                                    So, I can buy a lightly used Flair Pro 2 for $260 CDN or a Europicolla for $600 CDN used. I will resell the unit once I am done testing out the concept of a lever. Would the Flair be sufficient to do meet my test the waters purpose? Or do I need better? If so, what?

                                    The $260 CDN one just popped up on a local used goods site, and is 55% of new, so I’d need to jump on it.

                                      JHCCoffee - never owned a flair, but owned a Pavoni Pro and an Europiccola.

                                      They are interesting machines, for sure. But, again, don’t expect it to be a silver bullet. In all honesty, I find the Elizabeth a lot better and easy to work with. But, again, no point in me saying all those things. If you really want to try it out, go for it. Otherwise, you’ll never know. In summary:

                                      • They overheat;
                                      • the first shot is always colder than the second shot. The experts amongst us say the second shot is always better then the first, but the third one will be too hot.
                                      • the steam wand is hard to work with. You’ll most likely need an aftermarket steam tip. I had many, of all shapes and sizes. He stock 3 hole one is useless for microfoam.
                                      • know what you are buying: there were many iterations of the machine over the years. Some have teflon piston, some have a group sleeve, some have a brass piston, some have an adjustable pressure stat, some don’t have a pressure stat. Some have a single switch, some have a dual switch. Through history, build quality has been varied as the company tries to cut costs.
                                      • unless the machine is in tiptop condition, be prepared to buy a group service kit and get your hands “dirty”.
                                      • don’t expect consistency from day one: until you work out the machine quirks, it will be an learning curve. Sometimes you’ll get a 32ml shot or longer, sometimes you’ll struggle to extract 28g. Sometimes this could be due to air in the group, sometimes the piston has unscrewed from the rod, sometimes it needs adjustment….
                                      • do check the condition of the machine, specially rust under the plastic drip tray catcher, but also under the base.
                                      • if you don’t have a gauge installed, you’ll never know what pressure you are extracting your shots at. Eventually you’ll develop muscle memory, you’ll figure out what a spongy pull feels like, or a knife through butter one. You’ll figure out what feels right. But if you don’t know… your guess is as good as mine.
                                      • in the past 5 years, there’s been lots of mods and accessories for them. Group fins, thermometers, group insulators, pressure gauges, all sorts.
                                      • I could keep going… some people swear blindly by them. I don’t disagree. They are great machines. Ultimately it depends what you want.

                                      Once you get the hang of them, with some love, they will last a lifetime. Personally, for me, after a couple of years I got a little tired, sold them both and bought the Elizabeth.

                                      Good luck!

                                        JHCCoffee Can I have first dibs on yours, if you decide to sell it after you evaluate it, if you decide it’s not for you but would still recommend it to me?

                                        That is one carefully worded request! Sure thing.

                                        I suspect shipping might be the killer though (I’m in Australia) and then there is my memory, or lack thereof 😬 so feel free to remind me when I post a review here.

                                            tompoland
                                            Don’t forget the Voltage 230-115.
                                            Although I have a vague memory that the Argos is electrically ambidextrous?
                                            Non-Binary voltage?
                                            Identifies as?

                                                tompoland I suspect shipping might be the killer though (I’m in Australia) and then there is my memory, or lack thereof 😬 so feel free to remind me when I post a review here.

                                                My son-in-law to be (well they’ve been living together for some 10 years and have given me a wonderful grandson) have wedding plans in August. He’s from a small town on the ocean near Perth; his family will be traveling from there to Vancouver Island for the wedding. Additionally they have many Whistler, BC friends from Oz, that travel to and from many parts of the country. They can carry it in their luggage or as an extra piece, which costs way way less than shipping. If you decide to sell it, if I decide to buy it and the timing works out.

                                                  I can buy a lightly used Flair Pro 2 for $260 CDN or a Europicolla for $600 CDN used. I will resell the unit once I am done testing out the concept of a lever. Would the Flair be sufficient to meet my test the waters purpose? Or do I need better? If so, what?

                                                  The Flair Pro 2 just got posted on our local marketplace site, and the price is at 55% of retail, so I will pull the trigger on it tomorrow, IF it will suite my testing purposes. Conversely there is no point in doing that if I will not learn anything from using it. Don’t want to waste a whole lot of time, energy and beans for no good reason, especially as I pour about 18 to 22 or so shots a week, excluding sink shots.

                                                  That model is an OK option but not ideal.

                                                  The problem with the non electric flair levers is temperature accuracy and stability. The barrel that holds the water needs to brought up to heat which can be done either by immersing it in a kettle/pot and bringing it to boil or pouring boiling water through a few times. You can buy a temperature strip for the barrel which helps. I’ve had a Flair Signature Pro 2 for travel but upgraded to a Flair 58 for that reason.

                                                  That’s a bit if faffing around but I had a lot of fun with it until the novelty wore off.

                                                  The other advantage with the newer Flair 58s is that you can pull back to back shots without having to take it apart.

                                                  The original Flair 58 had a few flaws: a bizarre 3 part power cable that blew up the heated group head when connected in the wrong sequence*, a hook that often failed to grab the bridge that pushed the plunger, and a loose cable connection with the group head. All three failed on mine but were rectified pronto and without fuss under warranty. (Plus you couldn’t pull back to back shots with the original.)

                                                  Sorry I didn’t think of those warnings before. Better late than never?

                                                  All of which is to say that if you get a used Flair 58 you’ll need to be aware of those imperfections. That said, whilst Flair won’t admit they were design faults (probably for liability reasons) they have been quick to offer upgrades for individual items at very reasonable prices.

                                                  Despite my frustrations with the Flair 58, I would still recommend it as the best bang for bucks way to dive into the world of Levers.

                                                  PS the Flair 58 and Flair Signature Pro 2 both come with pressure gauges which are worth having while learning the craft.

                                                  * since replaced with a two part cable which is better but still bizarre in that if you connect it in the right sequence it fries the group head the same as the 3 part cable did.

                                                    tompoland
                                                    Thanks for the complete reply on the Flair Pro 2 and the Flair 58. The gentleman who sold his Argo had this to say about levers:

                                                    I fine this with any smaller group that the body is significantly enhanced … Have noticed this from 49-54mm … Wider Portafilter has a little more …. Flavor separation and cleanliness but lacks the warmth and full bodied flavour of smaller groups .

                                                    Does this make sense?

                                                    Did you notice any difference in taste between the Signature Pro 2 and the 58?

                                                        JHCCoffee no idea sorry.

                                                        I’ve never done side by side comparisons with levers (like I have with grinders) and that’s the only way I can come to reasonably solid conclusions. Same beans, same room temperature, same water temperature, back to back pulls, side by side sips, only one set per day.

                                                        I have pulled quite a few shots from 49mm, 54mm and 58mm baskets and they are all superb if everything else is on song. I currently have three levers with those sizes but I have them paired with different grinders so any comparison based on my daily habits wouln’t be valid because the grinders add a massive variable.

                                                        I wouldn’t pick a lever based on basket size but if I did it would be a 22g 54mm basket for two reasons. The first is purely sentimental; my original La San Marco sprung lever had that basket. The second reason is that I can pull what I would call a double ristretto, really slow ar around 1ml/sec and end up with 44g of delicious goop in the cup. Nectar from heaven.

                                                        I’m sure the same can be achieved with a 58mm basket but it doesn’t work so well (in terms of volume) with the 49mm.