Phew was a little concerned they were dodgy / harmful in some way. Think I’m shifting to the Zero until the Skuma lands in any case
Bottled Water and Descalling Espresso Machine
They are estimating June
Apologies for droning on about this but I’d like to be clear.
Should it be Sodium or Potassium Bicarbonate I add to Ashbeck to raise the Alkalinity ?
If it’s added then is it likely that the brew boiler won’t scale at normal temps ?
If the service boiler is used say 3 times a week and a cup of water drawn each time and a monthly change of service boiler water is carried out then scale would be a slow build up , perhaps an annual descale of the service boiler ?
Thanks , I do appreciate both @MWJB and @Rob1 taking the time to try and keep us on the right track
I draw a cup for every steam and refresh every month. The former is most likely to be an over kill.
I would imagine drawing a cup once a week and a refresh once in 5-6 weeks should be a good practice. This may minimise the need to descale even once a year.
I’m a little over the board on these things as I steam at least one large cup of milk (350 ml) a day. I am used to my work flow and comfortable keeping it that way.
I am sure Mark and Rob will provide the best recommendations!
All this talk is making me second guess myself now
i use my pavlis water, which is potassium bicarb,
should i still be flushing the steam boiler?
power off flush steam boiler back on and refresh with plain ro? or pavlis water
Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -
Cuprajake All this talk is making me second guess myself now
This make me feel less like a Luddite 🙏
If folks with many more miles in this espresso game than me are unsure then I don’t feel so bad 😕
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It depends on
- how old your machine is - I am thinking < 1Y
- how many steams a week
I would definitely consider, if I were you, get a drop kit and test to get an idea. I know what Rob will say. 😊
A full regular refresh is certainly the way forward or draw a cup or two a week as Dave would always suggest.
You have access to RO mate, I would use that.
Hint :
Perhaps this! You love it, don’t you ? 😂
yeah, machines always been on ro refreshed with potassium bicarb. as such theres nothing in there to scale, but it can leave soft deposits from reading,
machine is less than a yr old yeah.
Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -
This is the image of the water advise thread from Dave
see thats what i tend to do, as i use the steam boiler hw tap for americano so drag atleast a cupful if not more through a week,
Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -
- Edited
Waitforme Should it be Sodium or Potassium Bicarbonate I add to Ashbeck to raise the Alkalinity ?
If it’s added then is it likely that the brew boiler won’t scale at normal temps ?
I would use potassium bicarbonate to keep Sodium at 10mg/l but it’s up to you.
You can use the spreadsheet in my signature to calculate how much to add to 5 litres or whatever you want (the relevant instructions are to the right hand side of the cells on the example page…it’s not as complicated as it seems, just edit one cell at a time. That way you can lift alkalinity to whatever you want with whatever quantity of Ashbeck you have, scales willing. 0.2g Sodium Bicarb will get you to appro 50mg/l Alkalinity but Potassium Bicarb will be a bit different.
Grif was under the impression that would be corrosive….I can’t remember where I got that idea, presumably its not right?
It is corrosive, this is also a true statement for water that doesn’t form scale. However, the water is distilled directly into a sealed container and stored in a sealed container so has limited contact with gasses to dissolve (which is one of the main things to cause corrosion). Other than that the boilers are 316l steel which is fine for storing distilled water…..and additionally, it doesn’t stay pure for very long. I wouldn’t do it with Brass/Copper though.
Cuprajake i use my pavlis water, which is potassium bicarb,
should i still be flushing the steam boiler?
Yes but not as often. You’ll get sediment when solubility is exceeded (will take a very long time), other than that you’re just looking at increasing alkalinity which isn’t bad. I did read 316l steel is susceptible to some discolouration or very low level corrosion from potassium bicarbonate, not sure why but the same wasn’t true for sodium bicarb. This is room temp testing and it appears to be Potassium bicarb without water i.e. just powder sitting on the metal so 99.9% certain it’s nothing at all to worry about.
Thanks @Rob1
I downloaded the IPad XL App and used your spreadsheet.
I wasn’t sure how to use the Ashbeck data but I input the data from my water authority and got the results below, looks like my tap water is ok apparat from slight corrosion potential.
Is there anything I could add to tap water to lessen the corrosion risk ?
Waitforme I wasn’t sure how to use the Ashbeck data but I input the data from my water authority and got the results below, looks like my tap water is ok apparat from slight corrosion potential
Ashbeck just lists Calcium, Magnesium and bicarbonate to put in the tables at the top?
Anyway, you can add bicarbonates to raise alkalinity to the example above. Tap water can be quite inconsistent, the supplier only cares that things are within acceptable limits.
There are 5 pages to the spreadsheet (I think) the 4th one is the remineralisation page all blank, the 5th is just an example to refer to.
So in preparation for the delivery of my Minima I’m looking at my water. I’ve put 5l of tap water through the zero jug, which is giving me a TDS reading of 0 with the reader that came with the unit.
I have just cracked open the API drop test kit. Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question, but I presume I’m supposed to be looking at GH as opposed to KH?
Using the GH test kit, one drop turned the water in the tube green. If I understand correctly, with this testing kit, for boiler safe water I need to get to having to put 3 drops into the water in order to bring it to 53.7 or thereabouts (stage 3) on the conversion chart?
What would be the best way to harden the water? should I mix with some more tap water or should I be using something else?
Does the alkalinity take care of itself with the GH test, or do I need to do something else as well?
Apologies for the questions, just want to make sure I’ve got this right before putting in into a brand new Minima haha
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dutchy101 I have just cracked open the API drop test kit. Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question, but I presume I’m supposed to be looking at GH as opposed to KH?
Using the GH test kit, one drop turned the water in the tube green. If I understand correctly, with this testing kit, for boiler safe water I need to get to having to put 3 drops into the water in order to bring it to 53.7 or thereabouts (stage 3) on the conversion chart?
What would be the best way to harden the water? should I mix with some more tap water or should I be using something else?
Does the alkalinity take care of itself with the GH test, or do I need to do something else as well?
Apologies for the questions, just want to make sure I’ve got this right before putting in into a brand new Minima haha
- Test both the GH — hardness and KH — Alkalinity
- Please take 20 ml water for each test
- 1 drop at a time, shake and proceed further. You stop when you get green for GH and yellow for KH
- Multiply the number of drops using the table
- Divide the result by 4 to get the 5 ml reading.
- The result will be X mg/l
- Plug that on Rob’s excel and post it here.
- For alkalinity, you need at least 40 mg/l, which you can get by adding 50 mg/l of sodium bicarbonate.
LMSC For alkalinity, you need at least 40 mg/l, which you can get by adding 50 mg/l of sodium bicarbonate.
It’s 67mg/l Sodium bicarb for 40mg/l alkalinity but unless you’ve got lab scales you’ll probably need to make a concentrate instead.
dutchy101 I have just cracked open the API drop test kit. Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question, but I presume I’m supposed to be looking at GH as opposed to KH?
Ideally, control the KH for alkalinity and the zero water jug should keep GH down. You can mix with tap water or add potassium/sodium bicarb….or both if you want. Test for both. If you can’t fit 20ml in the test tube just use an espresso cup.
