LMSC Either this is over my head I will never understand or I am not sure I fully agree with you (i.e. “it won’t form scale”).

Because, there is water sitting inside the boiler. After steaming, the minerals are left behind. You draw a cup of water — before fill — and that water must show enchanted level of hardness or alkalinity.

My entire point is if the water has got to the point scale forms you won’t see minerals concentrating. Scale is hardness and alkalinity coming out of the water in equal measure. You can test water that doesn’t initially scale and then track it daily to the point it is about to start scaling at your max temp, but you can’t just draw water off randomly and check to see if scale is going to form on the next use. You would have no way of knowing if you’d caught it at the moment it is just about to start or if it has been scaling for a month. It does sound like you understand that.

LMSC So, do you draw 1 jug (how much please?) every 4-5 weeks or a full reflush after a light descale every 5 weeks?

No, I was saying after 4-5 weeks of steaming 1 big jug (of milk) a day (so approx 40 seconds of steaming daily) scale would start to form in a boiler that was initially filled with 1.7l distilled water and only topped up with water ~30mg/l Hardness and 40mg/l Alkalinity. I don’t descale, I just drain the boiler and fill up with distilled water again. If I didn’t fill it with distilled water to start with you’d probably see scale developing in less than a week.

I don’t think it’s really useful to obsess over the service boiler for the majority of people out there. I wouldn’t if it weren’t convenient for me to just fill it with distilled water every 5 weeks rather than descale. My distiller produces just about 3.4 litres per run and I only use 3 to mineralise so that 400ml builds up and gets used for concentrates and the service boiler.

        So my Zero jug arrived today. It comes with a digital TDS reader.

        I dipoed it into a glass of my tap water and it read 200 - in line with the water board levels. Ive filtered the water in the jug and it is down to 1.

        I thought I’d test the water from my Britta fridge jug. It was 300. 100 Higher than the tap water. Wtf?

        Admittedly I’m not using Britta filters in the jug and these fro. Amazon, but I think it’s time to ditch these cartridges:

        FilterLogic Universal 6 Pack Filter Cartridges Compatible with Brita Maxtra & Plus+ Water Jugs, White, fits -Marella-Elemaris-Bosch Tassimo & Kettles

        Will do a drop test in all with the drop test kit I’ve ordered

          I see the swearing filter even picks up abbreviations - cap doffed

          dutchy101 Straight carbon filters can raise TDS, it’s normal & not a sign of anything being wrong (other than you bought the wrong kind of filter for your application).

              “Rob1”#p4483 You can test water that doesn’t initially scale and then track it daily to the point it is about to start scaling at your max temp, but you can’t just draw water off randomly and check to see if scale is going to form on the next use. You would have no way of knowing if you’d caught it at the moment it is just about to start or if it has been scaling for a month.

              Thanks Rob! I understand your rational! Random or infrequent test doesn’t help answer when so that one can flush, refill and start with a clean slate again. Daily test gives an advantage, although it is too much of a faff and an over kill.

              Rob1 You would have no way of knowing if you’d caught it at the moment it is just about to start or if it has been scaling for a month. It does sound like you understand that.

              One doubt though:

              I keep wondering which one of the below is correct ?

              • If scaling has formed, would you not expect, when the water is drawn next time, the test result show the hardness corresponding to the scaling level? OR
              • The scaling has formed, now it has stopped scaling and the hardness won’t show in the drawn water, perhaps it will show no scales. This is the risk of irregular testing !

              Rob1 I don’t think it’s really useful to obsess over the service boiler for the majority of people out there

              True.

              Thx for your time and clarifying. It’s an interesting and a useful learning! 😂

                  MWJB

                  Phew was a little concerned they were dodgy / harmful in some way. Think I’m shifting to the Zero until the Skuma lands in any case

                  • LMSC replied to this.

                      dutchy101 until the Skuma lands

                      When do you expect the delivery ?

                        Apologies for droning on about this but I’d like to be clear.

                        Should it be Sodium or Potassium Bicarbonate I add to Ashbeck to raise the Alkalinity ?

                        If it’s added then is it likely that the brew boiler won’t scale at normal temps ?

                        If the service boiler is used say 3 times a week and a cup of water drawn each time and a monthly change of service boiler water is carried out then scale would be a slow build up , perhaps an annual descale of the service boiler ?

                        Thanks , I do appreciate both @MWJB and @Rob1 taking the time to try and keep us on the right track

                        • Rob1 replied to this.

                          I draw a cup for every steam and refresh every month. The former is most likely to be an over kill.

                          I would imagine drawing a cup once a week and a refresh once in 5-6 weeks should be a good practice. This may minimise the need to descale even once a year.

                          I’m a little over the board on these things as I steam at least one large cup of milk (350 ml) a day. I am used to my work flow and comfortable keeping it that way.

                          I am sure Mark and Rob will provide the best recommendations!

                          dutchy101 Reading this makes me want to cry

                          yup me too

                          Rob1 fill it with distilled water every 5 weeks

                          I was under the impression that would be corrosive….I can’t remember where I got that idea, presumably its not right?

                                Grif I was in a similar situation, like you. Decided to invest Osmio Zero. Top up with bicarb. Draw a cup and/or flush regularly. Please follow what these guys advise. You are good to go! 😊

                                  All this talk is making me second guess myself now

                                  i use my pavlis water, which is potassium bicarb,

                                  should i still be flushing the steam boiler?

                                  power off flush steam boiler back on and refresh with plain ro? or pavlis water

                                  Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                                    Cuprajake All this talk is making me second guess myself now

                                    This make me feel less like a Luddite 🙏

                                    If folks with many more miles in this espresso game than me are unsure then I don’t feel so bad 😕

                                      Cuprajake

                                      It depends on

                                      • how old your machine is - I am thinking < 1Y
                                      • how many steams a week

                                      I would definitely consider, if I were you, get a drop kit and test to get an idea. I know what Rob will say. 😊

                                      A full regular refresh is certainly the way forward or draw a cup or two a week as Dave would always suggest.

                                      You have access to RO mate, I would use that.

                                      Hint :

                                      Perhaps this! You love it, don’t you ? 😂

                                      Giphy - Discovery Channel Car GIF by Discovery Europe

                                        yeah, machines always been on ro refreshed with potassium bicarb. as such theres nothing in there to scale, but it can leave soft deposits from reading,

                                        machine is less than a yr old yeah.

                                        Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                                        • LMSC replied to this.

                                          Cuprajake You should be fine with the RO + bicarb.

                                          @DavecUK in fact advised me drawing a large cup a week should be enough with regular refresh.

                                            This is the image of the water advise thread from Dave

                                            see thats what i tend to do, as i use the steam boiler hw tap for americano so drag atleast a cupful if not more through a week,

                                            Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                                            Waitforme Should it be Sodium or Potassium Bicarbonate I add to Ashbeck to raise the Alkalinity ?

                                            If it’s added then is it likely that the brew boiler won’t scale at normal temps ?

                                            I would use potassium bicarbonate to keep Sodium at 10mg/l but it’s up to you.

                                            You can use the spreadsheet in my signature to calculate how much to add to 5 litres or whatever you want (the relevant instructions are to the right hand side of the cells on the example page…it’s not as complicated as it seems, just edit one cell at a time. That way you can lift alkalinity to whatever you want with whatever quantity of Ashbeck you have, scales willing. 0.2g Sodium Bicarb will get you to appro 50mg/l Alkalinity but Potassium Bicarb will be a bit different.

                                            Grif was under the impression that would be corrosive….I can’t remember where I got that idea, presumably its not right?

                                            It is corrosive, this is also a true statement for water that doesn’t form scale. However, the water is distilled directly into a sealed container and stored in a sealed container so has limited contact with gasses to dissolve (which is one of the main things to cause corrosion). Other than that the boilers are 316l steel which is fine for storing distilled water…..and additionally, it doesn’t stay pure for very long. I wouldn’t do it with Brass/Copper though.

                                            Cuprajake i use my pavlis water, which is potassium bicarb,

                                            should i still be flushing the steam boiler?

                                            Yes but not as often. You’ll get sediment when solubility is exceeded (will take a very long time), other than that you’re just looking at increasing alkalinity which isn’t bad. I did read 316l steel is susceptible to some discolouration or very low level corrosion from potassium bicarbonate, not sure why but the same wasn’t true for sodium bicarb. This is room temp testing and it appears to be Potassium bicarb without water i.e. just powder sitting on the metal so 99.9% certain it’s nothing at all to worry about.