I've not got my machine yet (Minima), but will be getting it as early in 2022 as I can. My plan is to use Lockhills for the time being. I can't get into RO at the moment for a while host of reasons, but might do down the line (years, not months). Is Lockhills still considered okay for espresso machines (I know it isn't perfect)? It is a lot easier for me to get than Ashbeck. I also can't seem to find anything on how to descale a machine. I know the best advice is to avoid needing to, but I'm going to have to for a while. Is there a recommended approach/ process to follow? Cheers

It's probably the best bottled water. You'll need to descale the service boiler though, a fairly simple task however you do it (removing fixture or just filling with the pump).

Thank you for the quick reply @"Rob1"#171 , that's great. I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I'll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared.

> @"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I’ll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared. As long as you **don't engage the brew switch** until descaling is completely finished and the steam boiler refreshed with water a few times to remove all descaler, n**o descaler should enter the brew boiler…** It's easier than removing fittings…just takes a bit longer.

Thanks @"DavecUK"#p2204 Just so I am clear - do you mean you'd switch the brew and steam boilers on (leaving the brew switch well alone) put the descaler in the water tank, run the HW tap to then pull the descaler into the steam boiler, let it do it's thing, then flush with lots of clean water (through the HW tap) before brewing again.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2209 Yes, exactly

Got to admit I have only ever used Ashbeck, but still descale on a regular basis just as a matter of course. However, I would be interested to hear from other members here what they consider the best water (bottled) to be as far as keeping the scale issue to a minimum…Oh, and of course for taste.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 Should say really Lockhills will scale in the brew boiler too very slightly. Ideally, you could mix it with something to decrease alkalinity and hardness a bit more e.g. dow to 40mg/l alkalinity using something like a zero water jug, then it wouldn't scale the brew boiler. It's still the best IMO as I wouldn't use ashbeck. You'll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too.

Thanks @"Rob1"#p2289 When you say > @"Rob1"#p2289 You’ll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too. "As is with that one" - what do you mean? It sounds like you might be saying if I use Ashbeck and add potassium bicarb I'd avoid brew boiler scale and deal with the taste issue. But I am not sure that's what you mean.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2294 I mean 'as is' as in without adding anything to it but alkalinity is really low so you can get around it by adding potassium bicarb to avoid increasing sodium.

@"Rob1"#171, what dose of Potassium Bicarbonate would you add to a 5 litre bottle of Ashbeck ?

Bottled Water and Descalling Espresso Machine

Eyedee

I find it majorly confusing and I though I was ok using 50/50 Volvic /Ashbeck, now I don’t know anymore.

Ian

MWJB

Eyedee You’re OK, don’t let it keep you up at night.

Waitforme

I also used a 50/50 mix but since last week I’m using Ashbeck with 0.2 gm per 5l of sodium bicarbonate to raise the alkalinity to approx 40mg/l

Rob1

Waitforme I also used a 50/50 mix but since last week I’m using Ashbeck with 0.2 gm per 5l of sodium bicarbonate to raise the alkalinity to approx 40mg/l

That’ll be 50mg/l in total.

LMSC

Waitforme This API kit

Rob1

LMSC I understand some water lost in steaming as it leaves the minerals as deposit. In my Evo, for example, I steam 350g of milk once a day. After steaming for about 35s, the pump has never kicked in, during the last 6 months, unless I open the hot water tap.

I would find that really strange (unless you open the hot water tap every day or two). Maybe the evo just has a long refill and a deeper probe tip. On the Minima when I steam for about 15 seconds I’ll get a refill either the next morning when the machine turns on via timer or when I use steam again and the boilers cool down. Almost always get a refill when the boilers cool down/when the machine comes on first thing if turned off when still warm after steaming a larger quantity e.g 40 seconds of steaming.

The amount lost is small but it adds up quickly, especially when you are putting water in with hardness and alkalinity. With the Minima I fill the service boiler with approx 1700ml distilled water. Over the course of 4-5 weeks steaming approx 1 big jug a day (40 seconds of steaming approx) the boiler will need to be drained because from that point you’ll start to see scale building up.

The point I was making about testing water from the steam boiler is alkalinity and hardness reduce as scale is formed until scale stops forming, so no matter what happens when you test the water you’ll conclude it won’t form scale. Of course, you’ll see it’s right on the edge/just a little over limit. In your case, you can track how close it is to forming scale as alkalinity and hardness both rise over time, but you can’t perform a random test and know when it started to scale if it gets beyond that point.

LMSC So, for scale to become an issue, we need to steam a few times a day, leave the water to sit in the boiler, not draw something out regularly and do not flush out the water and replace once in 5-6 weeks.

Even doing this scale probably won’t be an issue for quite some time. I used Volvic in the old Expobar for months without descaling and didn’t have any issues.

LMSC

Rob1 Interesting and yet how quickly complexity this area can get.

Rob1 I would find that really strange (unless you open the hot water tap every day or two). Maybe the evo just has a long refill and a deeper probe tip

I manage this a little differently to yours.

I steam once a day. After steaming, I quickly steam out for a few seconds to get the milk out, switch off the boiler and machine and draw a cup. This is used for washing, etc. I do not see any value in testing this every day. I know I have drawn more than the water lost in per steaming. I switch on, the boiler fills which is roughly equivalent to what I drew out. It may have added an extra 20-30 ML

The Evo probe is 65% into the boiler.

Rob1 Over the course of 4-5 weeks steaming approx 1 big jug a day (40 seconds of steaming approx) the boiler will need to be drained because from that point you’ll start to see scale building up.

So, do you draw 1 jug (how much please?) every 4-5 weeks or a full reflush after a light descale every 5 weeks?

Rob1 The point I was making about testing water from the steam boiler is alkalinity and hardness reduce as scale is formed until scale stops forming, so no matter what happens when you test the water you’ll conclude it won’t form scale. Of course, you’ll see it’s right on the edge/just a little over limit. In your case, you can track how close it is to forming scale as alkalinity and hardness both rise over time, but you can’t perform a random test and know when it started to scale if it gets beyond that point.

Either this is over my head I will never understand or I am not sure I fully agree with you (i.e. “it won’t form scale”).

Because, there is water sitting inside the boiler. After steaming, the minerals are left behind. You draw a cup of water — before fill — and that water must show enchanted level of hardness or alkalinity. If your excel is to be believed, that result must show whether scaling is formed or the risk is higher now than before.

I have tested the drawn water daily for some time, then weekly and now monthly. The data points were consistent in terms of where the scaling and alkalinity were over these time intervals.

Of course, it was a remineralised RO water with bicarb added. It is therefore not surprising the data doesn’t show scaling risks.

IMO, that must be sufficient. It doesn’t have to be exact as we can never say when it started forming a scale - we need a real-time monitoring for that. We don’t need this as I believe a static measurement is more than enough, the user keeps track of the data collected over time - keeping the trend of the data intact.

Rob1 Even doing this scale probably won’t be an issue for quite some time. I used Volvic in the old Expobar for months without descaling and didn’t have any issues.

True! agree.

dutchy101

Reading this makes me want to cry. Checking water levels before I put it into the machine was enough but checking what comes out as well??? Lol

Grif

dutchy101 Reading this makes me want to cry

yup me too

Rob1 fill it with distilled water every 5 weeks

I was under the impression that would be corrosive….I can’t remember where I got that idea, presumably its not right?

Rob1

You don’t need to check what comes out at all, just drain the service boiler quite frequently and perform a light descale every six months.

Rob1

LMSC Either this is over my head I will never understand or I am not sure I fully agree with you (i.e. “it won’t form scale”).

Because, there is water sitting inside the boiler. After steaming, the minerals are left behind. You draw a cup of water — before fill — and that water must show enchanted level of hardness or alkalinity.

My entire point is if the water has got to the point scale forms you won’t see minerals concentrating. Scale is hardness and alkalinity coming out of the water in equal measure. You can test water that doesn’t initially scale and then track it daily to the point it is about to start scaling at your max temp, but you can’t just draw water off randomly and check to see if scale is going to form on the next use. You would have no way of knowing if you’d caught it at the moment it is just about to start or if it has been scaling for a month. It does sound like you understand that.

LMSC So, do you draw 1 jug (how much please?) every 4-5 weeks or a full reflush after a light descale every 5 weeks?

No, I was saying after 4-5 weeks of steaming 1 big jug (of milk) a day (so approx 40 seconds of steaming daily) scale would start to form in a boiler that was initially filled with 1.7l distilled water and only topped up with water ~30mg/l Hardness and 40mg/l Alkalinity. I don’t descale, I just drain the boiler and fill up with distilled water again. If I didn’t fill it with distilled water to start with you’d probably see scale developing in less than a week.

I don’t think it’s really useful to obsess over the service boiler for the majority of people out there. I wouldn’t if it weren’t convenient for me to just fill it with distilled water every 5 weeks rather than descale. My distiller produces just about 3.4 litres per run and I only use 3 to mineralise so that 400ml builds up and gets used for concentrates and the service boiler.

dutchy101

Leave that to the caffine

LMSC

“Rob1”#p4483 You can test water that doesn’t initially scale and then track it daily to the point it is about to start scaling at your max temp, but you can’t just draw water off randomly and check to see if scale is going to form on the next use. You would have no way of knowing if you’d caught it at the moment it is just about to start or if it has been scaling for a month.

Thanks Rob! I understand your rational! Random or infrequent test doesn’t help answer when so that one can flush, refill and start with a clean slate again. Daily test gives an advantage, although it is too much of a faff and an over kill.

Rob1 You would have no way of knowing if you’d caught it at the moment it is just about to start or if it has been scaling for a month. It does sound like you understand that.

One doubt though:

I keep wondering which one of the below is correct ?

If scaling has formed, would you not expect, when the water is drawn next time, the test result show the hardness corresponding to the scaling level? OR
The scaling has formed, now it has stopped scaling and the hardness won’t show in the drawn water, perhaps it will show no scales. This is the risk of irregular testing !

Rob1 I don’t think it’s really useful to obsess over the service boiler for the majority of people out there

True.

Thx for your time and clarifying. It’s an interesting and a useful learning! 😂

simonc

Rob1 Hi Rob. How do you put this 400ml only into the service boiler as I’m assuming you wouldn’t want it in the brew boiler?

dutchy101

So my Zero jug arrived today. It comes with a digital TDS reader.

I dipoed it into a glass of my tap water and it read 200 - in line with the water board levels. Ive filtered the water in the jug and it is down to 1.

I thought I’d test the water from my Britta fridge jug. It was 300. 100 Higher than the tap water. Wtf?

Admittedly I’m not using Britta filters in the jug and these fro. Amazon, but I think it’s time to ditch these cartridges:

FilterLogic Universal 6 Pack Filter Cartridges Compatible with Brita Maxtra & Plus+ Water Jugs, White, fits -Marella-Elemaris-Bosch Tassimo & Kettles

Will do a drop test in all with the drop test kit I’ve ordered

MWJB

dutchy101 Straight carbon filters can raise TDS, it’s normal & not a sign of anything being wrong (other than you bought the wrong kind of filter for your application).

dutchy101

I see the swearing filter even picks up abbreviations - cap doffed

dutchy101

MWJB

Phew was a little concerned they were dodgy / harmful in some way. Think I’m shifting to the Zero until the Skuma lands in any case

LMSC

dutchy101 until the Skuma lands

When do you expect the delivery ?

dutchy101

They are estimating June

Waitforme

Apologies for droning on about this but I’d like to be clear.

Should it be Sodium or Potassium Bicarbonate I add to Ashbeck to raise the Alkalinity ?

If it’s added then is it likely that the brew boiler won’t scale at normal temps ?

If the service boiler is used say 3 times a week and a cup of water drawn each time and a monthly change of service boiler water is carried out then scale would be a slow build up , perhaps an annual descale of the service boiler ?

Thanks , I do appreciate both @MWJB and @Rob1 taking the time to try and keep us on the right track

Rob1

Waitforme Should it be Sodium or Potassium Bicarbonate I add to Ashbeck to raise the Alkalinity ?

If it’s added then is it likely that the brew boiler won’t scale at normal temps ?

I would use potassium bicarbonate to keep Sodium at 10mg/l but it’s up to you.

You can use the spreadsheet in my signature to calculate how much to add to 5 litres or whatever you want (the relevant instructions are to the right hand side of the cells on the example page…it’s not as complicated as it seems, just edit one cell at a time. That way you can lift alkalinity to whatever you want with whatever quantity of Ashbeck you have, scales willing. 0.2g Sodium Bicarb will get you to appro 50mg/l Alkalinity but Potassium Bicarb will be a bit different.

Grif was under the impression that would be corrosive….I can’t remember where I got that idea, presumably its not right?

It is corrosive, this is also a true statement for water that doesn’t form scale. However, the water is distilled directly into a sealed container and stored in a sealed container so has limited contact with gasses to dissolve (which is one of the main things to cause corrosion). Other than that the boilers are 316l steel which is fine for storing distilled water…..and additionally, it doesn’t stay pure for very long. I wouldn’t do it with Brass/Copper though.

Cuprajake i use my pavlis water, which is potassium bicarb,

should i still be flushing the steam boiler?

Yes but not as often. You’ll get sediment when solubility is exceeded (will take a very long time), other than that you’re just looking at increasing alkalinity which isn’t bad. I did read 316l steel is susceptible to some discolouration or very low level corrosion from potassium bicarbonate, not sure why but the same wasn’t true for sodium bicarb. This is room temp testing and it appears to be Potassium bicarb without water i.e. just powder sitting on the metal so 99.9% certain it’s nothing at all to worry about.

LMSC

I draw a cup for every steam and refresh every month. The former is most likely to be an over kill.

I would imagine drawing a cup once a week and a refresh once in 5-6 weeks should be a good practice. This may minimise the need to descale even once a year.

I’m a little over the board on these things as I steam at least one large cup of milk (350 ml) a day. I am used to my work flow and comfortable keeping it that way.

I am sure Mark and Rob will provide the best recommendations!

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