Bottled Water and Descalling Espresso Machine

LMSC I understand some water lost in steaming as it leaves the minerals as deposit. In my Evo, for example, I steam 350g of milk once a day. After steaming for about 35s, the pump has never kicked in, during the last 6 months, unless I open the hot water tap.

I would find that really strange (unless you open the hot water tap every day or two). Maybe the evo just has a long refill and a deeper probe tip. On the Minima when I steam for about 15 seconds I’ll get a refill either the next morning when the machine turns on via timer or when I use steam again and the boilers cool down. Almost always get a refill when the boilers cool down/when the machine comes on first thing if turned off when still warm after steaming a larger quantity e.g 40 seconds of steaming.

The amount lost is small but it adds up quickly, especially when you are putting water in with hardness and alkalinity. With the Minima I fill the service boiler with approx 1700ml distilled water. Over the course of 4-5 weeks steaming approx 1 big jug a day (40 seconds of steaming approx) the boiler will need to be drained because from that point you’ll start to see scale building up.

The point I was making about testing water from the steam boiler is alkalinity and hardness reduce as scale is formed until scale stops forming, so no matter what happens when you test the water you’ll conclude it won’t form scale. Of course, you’ll see it’s right on the edge/just a little over limit. In your case, you can track how close it is to forming scale as alkalinity and hardness both rise over time, but you can’t perform a random test and know when it started to scale if it gets beyond that point.

LMSC So, for scale to become an issue, we need to steam a few times a day, leave the water to sit in the boiler, not draw something out regularly and do not flush out the water and replace once in 5-6 weeks.

Even doing this scale probably won’t be an issue for quite some time. I used Volvic in the old Expobar for months without descaling and didn’t have any issues.

Reading this makes me want to cry. Checking water levels before I put it into the machine was enough but checking what comes out as well??? Lol

You don’t need to check what comes out at all, just drain the service boiler quite frequently and perform a light descale every six months.

Waitforme I also used a 50/50 mix but since last week I’m using Ashbeck with 0.2 gm per 5l of sodium bicarbonate to raise the alkalinity to approx 40mg/l

That’ll be 50mg/l in total.

Eyedee You’re OK, don’t let it keep you up at night.

Leave that to the caffine

LMSC Either this is over my head I will never understand or I am not sure I fully agree with you (i.e. “it won’t form scale”).

Because, there is water sitting inside the boiler. After steaming, the minerals are left behind. You draw a cup of water — before fill — and that water must show enchanted level of hardness or alkalinity.

My entire point is if the water has got to the point scale forms you won’t see minerals concentrating. Scale is hardness and alkalinity coming out of the water in equal measure. You can test water that doesn’t initially scale and then track it daily to the point it is about to start scaling at your max temp, but you can’t just draw water off randomly and check to see if scale is going to form on the next use. You would have no way of knowing if you’d caught it at the moment it is just about to start or if it has been scaling for a month. It does sound like you understand that.

LMSC So, do you draw 1 jug (how much please?) every 4-5 weeks or a full reflush after a light descale every 5 weeks?

No, I was saying after 4-5 weeks of steaming 1 big jug (of milk) a day (so approx 40 seconds of steaming daily) scale would start to form in a boiler that was initially filled with 1.7l distilled water and only topped up with water ~30mg/l Hardness and 40mg/l Alkalinity. I don’t descale, I just drain the boiler and fill up with distilled water again. If I didn’t fill it with distilled water to start with you’d probably see scale developing in less than a week.

I don’t think it’s really useful to obsess over the service boiler for the majority of people out there. I wouldn’t if it weren’t convenient for me to just fill it with distilled water every 5 weeks rather than descale. My distiller produces just about 3.4 litres per run and I only use 3 to mineralise so that 400ml builds up and gets used for concentrates and the service boiler.

So my Zero jug arrived today. It comes with a digital TDS reader.

I dipoed it into a glass of my tap water and it read 200 - in line with the water board levels. Ive filtered the water in the jug and it is down to 1.

I thought I’d test the water from my Britta fridge jug. It was 300. 100 Higher than the tap water. Wtf?

Admittedly I’m not using Britta filters in the jug and these fro. Amazon, but I think it’s time to ditch these cartridges:

FilterLogic Universal 6 Pack Filter Cartridges Compatible with Brita Maxtra & Plus+ Water Jugs, White, fits -Marella-Elemaris-Bosch Tassimo & Kettles

Will do a drop test in all with the drop test kit I’ve ordered

I see the swearing filter even picks up abbreviations - cap doffed

MWJB

Phew was a little concerned they were dodgy / harmful in some way. Think I’m shifting to the Zero until the Skuma lands in any case

dutchy101 until the Skuma lands

When do you expect the delivery ?

They are estimating June

Apologies for droning on about this but I’d like to be clear.

Should it be Sodium or Potassium Bicarbonate I add to Ashbeck to raise the Alkalinity ?

If it’s added then is it likely that the brew boiler won’t scale at normal temps ?

If the service boiler is used say 3 times a week and a cup of water drawn each time and a monthly change of service boiler water is carried out then scale would be a slow build up , perhaps an annual descale of the service boiler ?

Thanks , I do appreciate both @MWJB and @Rob1 taking the time to try and keep us on the right track

I draw a cup for every steam and refresh every month. The former is most likely to be an over kill.

I would imagine drawing a cup once a week and a refresh once in 5-6 weeks should be a good practice. This may minimise the need to descale even once a year.

I’m a little over the board on these things as I steam at least one large cup of milk (350 ml) a day. I am used to my work flow and comfortable keeping it that way.

I am sure Mark and Rob will provide the best recommendations!

dutchy101 Reading this makes me want to cry

yup me too

Rob1 fill it with distilled water every 5 weeks

I was under the impression that would be corrosive….I can’t remember where I got that idea, presumably its not right?

Grif I was in a similar situation, like you. Decided to invest Osmio Zero. Top up with bicarb. Draw a cup and/or flush regularly. Please follow what these guys advise. You are good to go! 😊

All this talk is making me second guess myself now

i use my pavlis water, which is potassium bicarb,

should i still be flushing the steam boiler?

power off flush steam boiler back on and refresh with plain ro? or pavlis water