I've not got my machine yet (Minima), but will be getting it as early in 2022 as I can. My plan is to use Lockhills for the time being. I can't get into RO at the moment for a while host of reasons, but might do down the line (years, not months). Is Lockhills still considered okay for espresso machines (I know it isn't perfect)? It is a lot easier for me to get than Ashbeck. I also can't seem to find anything on how to descale a machine. I know the best advice is to avoid needing to, but I'm going to have to for a while. Is there a recommended approach/ process to follow? Cheers

It's probably the best bottled water. You'll need to descale the service boiler though, a fairly simple task however you do it (removing fixture or just filling with the pump).

Thank you for the quick reply @"Rob1"#171 , that's great. I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I'll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared.

> @"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I’ll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared. As long as you **don't engage the brew switch** until descaling is completely finished and the steam boiler refreshed with water a few times to remove all descaler, n**o descaler should enter the brew boiler…** It's easier than removing fittings…just takes a bit longer.

Thanks @"DavecUK"#p2204 Just so I am clear - do you mean you'd switch the brew and steam boilers on (leaving the brew switch well alone) put the descaler in the water tank, run the HW tap to then pull the descaler into the steam boiler, let it do it's thing, then flush with lots of clean water (through the HW tap) before brewing again.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2209 Yes, exactly

Got to admit I have only ever used Ashbeck, but still descale on a regular basis just as a matter of course. However, I would be interested to hear from other members here what they consider the best water (bottled) to be as far as keeping the scale issue to a minimum…Oh, and of course for taste.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 Should say really Lockhills will scale in the brew boiler too very slightly. Ideally, you could mix it with something to decrease alkalinity and hardness a bit more e.g. dow to 40mg/l alkalinity using something like a zero water jug, then it wouldn't scale the brew boiler. It's still the best IMO as I wouldn't use ashbeck. You'll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too.

Thanks @"Rob1"#p2289 When you say > @"Rob1"#p2289 You’ll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too. "As is with that one" - what do you mean? It sounds like you might be saying if I use Ashbeck and add potassium bicarb I'd avoid brew boiler scale and deal with the taste issue. But I am not sure that's what you mean.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2294 I mean 'as is' as in without adding anything to it but alkalinity is really low so you can get around it by adding potassium bicarb to avoid increasing sodium.

@"Rob1"#171, what dose of Potassium Bicarbonate would you add to a 5 litre bottle of Ashbeck ?

Bottled Water and Descalling Espresso Machine

Grif

dutchy101 Reading this makes me want to cry

yup me too

Rob1 fill it with distilled water every 5 weeks

I was under the impression that would be corrosive….I can’t remember where I got that idea, presumably its not right?

LMSC

Grif I was in a similar situation, like you. Decided to invest Osmio Zero. Top up with bicarb. Draw a cup and/or flush regularly. Please follow what these guys advise. You are good to go! 😊

Rob1

Waitforme Should it be Sodium or Potassium Bicarbonate I add to Ashbeck to raise the Alkalinity ?

If it’s added then is it likely that the brew boiler won’t scale at normal temps ?

I would use potassium bicarbonate to keep Sodium at 10mg/l but it’s up to you.

You can use the spreadsheet in my signature to calculate how much to add to 5 litres or whatever you want (the relevant instructions are to the right hand side of the cells on the example page…it’s not as complicated as it seems, just edit one cell at a time. That way you can lift alkalinity to whatever you want with whatever quantity of Ashbeck you have, scales willing. 0.2g Sodium Bicarb will get you to appro 50mg/l Alkalinity but Potassium Bicarb will be a bit different.

Grif was under the impression that would be corrosive….I can’t remember where I got that idea, presumably its not right?

It is corrosive, this is also a true statement for water that doesn’t form scale. However, the water is distilled directly into a sealed container and stored in a sealed container so has limited contact with gasses to dissolve (which is one of the main things to cause corrosion). Other than that the boilers are 316l steel which is fine for storing distilled water…..and additionally, it doesn’t stay pure for very long. I wouldn’t do it with Brass/Copper though.

Cuprajake i use my pavlis water, which is potassium bicarb,

should i still be flushing the steam boiler?

Yes but not as often. You’ll get sediment when solubility is exceeded (will take a very long time), other than that you’re just looking at increasing alkalinity which isn’t bad. I did read 316l steel is susceptible to some discolouration or very low level corrosion from potassium bicarbonate, not sure why but the same wasn’t true for sodium bicarb. This is room temp testing and it appears to be Potassium bicarb without water i.e. just powder sitting on the metal so 99.9% certain it’s nothing at all to worry about.

Cuprajake

All this talk is making me second guess myself now

i use my pavlis water, which is potassium bicarb,

should i still be flushing the steam boiler?

power off flush steam boiler back on and refresh with plain ro? or pavlis water

Waitforme

Cuprajake All this talk is making me second guess myself now

This make me feel less like a Luddite 🙏

If folks with many more miles in this espresso game than me are unsure then I don’t feel so bad 😕

LMSC

Cuprajake

It depends on

how old your machine is - I am thinking < 1Y
how many steams a week

I would definitely consider, if I were you, get a drop kit and test to get an idea. I know what Rob will say. 😊

A full regular refresh is certainly the way forward or draw a cup or two a week as Dave would always suggest.

You have access to RO mate, I would use that.

Hint :

Perhaps this! You love it, don’t you ? 😂

Giphy - Discovery Channel Car GIF by Discovery Europe

Cuprajake

yeah, machines always been on ro refreshed with potassium bicarb. as such theres nothing in there to scale, but it can leave soft deposits from reading,

machine is less than a yr old yeah.

LMSC

Cuprajake You should be fine with the RO + bicarb.

@DavecUK in fact advised me drawing a large cup a week should be enough with regular refresh.

LMSC

This is the image of the water advise thread from Dave

Cuprajake

see thats what i tend to do, as i use the steam boiler hw tap for americano so drag atleast a cupful if not more through a week,

Waitforme

Thanks @Rob1

I downloaded the IPad XL App and used your spreadsheet.

I wasn’t sure how to use the Ashbeck data but I input the data from my water authority and got the results below, looks like my tap water is ok apparat from slight corrosion potential.

Is there anything I could add to tap water to lessen the corrosion risk ?

Rob1

Waitforme I wasn’t sure how to use the Ashbeck data but I input the data from my water authority and got the results below, looks like my tap water is ok apparat from slight corrosion potential

Ashbeck just lists Calcium, Magnesium and bicarbonate to put in the tables at the top?

Anyway, you can add bicarbonates to raise alkalinity to the example above. Tap water can be quite inconsistent, the supplier only cares that things are within acceptable limits.

There are 5 pages to the spreadsheet (I think) the 4th one is the remineralisation page all blank, the 5th is just an example to refer to.

dutchy101

So in preparation for the delivery of my Minima I’m looking at my water. I’ve put 5l of tap water through the zero jug, which is giving me a TDS reading of 0 with the reader that came with the unit.

I have just cracked open the API drop test kit. Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question, but I presume I’m supposed to be looking at GH as opposed to KH?

Using the GH test kit, one drop turned the water in the tube green. If I understand correctly, with this testing kit, for boiler safe water I need to get to having to put 3 drops into the water in order to bring it to 53.7 or thereabouts (stage 3) on the conversion chart?

What would be the best way to harden the water? should I mix with some more tap water or should I be using something else?

Does the alkalinity take care of itself with the GH test, or do I need to do something else as well?

Apologies for the questions, just want to make sure I’ve got this right before putting in into a brand new Minima haha

LMSC

dutchy101 I have just cracked open the API drop test kit. Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question, but I presume I’m supposed to be looking at GH as opposed to KH?

Using the GH test kit, one drop turned the water in the tube green. If I understand correctly, with this testing kit, for boiler safe water I need to get to having to put 3 drops into the water in order to bring it to 53.7 or thereabouts (stage 3) on the conversion chart?

What would be the best way to harden the water? should I mix with some more tap water or should I be using something else?

Does the alkalinity take care of itself with the GH test, or do I need to do something else as well?

Apologies for the questions, just want to make sure I’ve got this right before putting in into a brand new Minima haha

Test both the GH — hardness and KH — Alkalinity
Please take 20 ml water for each test
1 drop at a time, shake and proceed further. You stop when you get green for GH and yellow for KH
Multiply the number of drops using the table
Divide the result by 4 to get the 5 ml reading.
The result will be X mg/l
Plug that on Rob’s excel and post it here.
For alkalinity, you need at least 40 mg/l, which you can get by adding 50 mg/l of sodium bicarbonate.

Rob1

LMSC For alkalinity, you need at least 40 mg/l, which you can get by adding 50 mg/l of sodium bicarbonate.

It’s 67mg/l Sodium bicarb for 40mg/l alkalinity but unless you’ve got lab scales you’ll probably need to make a concentrate instead.

dutchy101 I have just cracked open the API drop test kit. Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question, but I presume I’m supposed to be looking at GH as opposed to KH?

Ideally, control the KH for alkalinity and the zero water jug should keep GH down. You can mix with tap water or add potassium/sodium bicarb….or both if you want. Test for both. If you can’t fit 20ml in the test tube just use an espresso cup.

dutchy101

LMSC Test both the GH — hardness and KH — Alkalinity
Please take 20 ml water for each test
1 drop at a time, shake and proceed further. You stop when you get green for GH and yellow for KH
Multiply the number of drops using the table
Divide the result by 4 to get the 5 ml reading.
The result will be X mg/l
Plug that on Rob’s excel and post it here.
For alkalinity, you need at least 40 mg/l, which you can get by adding 50 mg/l of sodium bicarbonate.

OK, so I’ve just taken two 20ml samples. For hardness (GH) the water started to turn a very weak green after 1 drop and then a bit stronger after the 2nd and gets to a more solid green at about 4 drops. The same was true for the KH test to turn the water yellow but perhaps 5 drops to get to the more solid yellow.

Looking at the chart, the ppm level for 4 drops is 71.6, so if I’ve understood when you say “multiply the number of drops using the table” correctly, I should multiply that by 4 and then divide this again by 4 to give me the 5ml reading, which would be 71.6 for hardness?

Using the same method and 5 drops of the KH solution is 89.5 × 5 drops = 447 divided by 4 = 111.8 alkalinity

I’ve plugged these into the relevant section of the table.

LMSC

Rob1 It’s 67mg/l Sodium bicarb for 40mg/l alkalinity but unless you’ve got lab scales you’ll probably need to make a concentrate instead.

Thx mate. Bizzare, the excel on my local disk shows 50 mg/l.

Not sure what happened. I will grab another copy.

dutchy101

Thanks guys. The test tubes provided are 5ml so will find a different vessel for the tests.

Out of interest, do those with RO units do this test every time you make up a batch of water or do you just trust the RO to be consistent and work to the formula you’ve worked out?

LMSC

dutchy101

dutchy101 Out of interest, do those with RO units do this test every time you make up a batch of water or do you just trust the RO to be consistent and work to the formula you’ve worked out?

No. I test the water from RO unit when I flush out every 4-5 weeks. It’s too much of a faff otherwise.😊

Rob1

LMSC Thx mate. Bizzare, the excel on my local disk shows 50 mg/l.

The excel is correct on the screenshot, you’re just not looking at the right thing. The remineralisation page will show the correct amount of Sodium bicarb (or anything else) to add to get the desired alkalinity.

dutchy101

That’s what I wanted to hear - thanks

LMSC

Rob1 Oh I see. I will check the other sheet.

Cuprajake Please share if you can. I am not sure if it can be inserted into Rob’s excel.

Thx

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