MisterH1337 The problem I am having is with steam pressure. It’s hardly maintainable above 1Bar during the froth, and often drops to 0.7-0.8 after 10s of frothing. (And yeah, I did read the entire 30 pages discussion regarding that topic on CoffeeForumsUK, my workflow is fine, i just can’t achieve the same numbers shown on youtube videos of the machine).

MisterH1337 I don’t have access to my firmware so can’t help with that, but I am wondering if you are not barking the wrong tree. My machine boost to ~1.5 bar after a shot, and doesn’t go far down during steaming, whereas you say yours is hardly above 1 bar and goes down to 0.7-0.8 after 10 seconds.

I got my machine in September 2020, so it’s older than yours. I don’t have any knowledge regarding firmware changes, but I doubt that Lelit changed the settings to have less steaming power. If anything, my impression was that some people wanted more steaming power, so I would guess (it’s only a guess) that if they changed the settings they would up the steam power and not lower it. Even if they did opt for a lower steam boost, I don’t think hovering between just over 1 to 0.7 bar is what they would do for steam boost.

I also don’t know if 2 degrees difference in temperature (128 to 126C would translate to such a big difference in steam pressure. Maybe DavecUK can say if this makes sense?

I am therefore wondering if your issue wouldn’t be the same problem as the other people who have had this problem described in the thread you mentioned on CFUK: the temp sensor. From memory, most of the people who encountered a too-low steam pressure managed to solve the problem by replacing the temp sensor. Have you looked at that and confirmed this isn’t the issue before going the firmware route?

          Doram It’s a tiricky one, but no a few C difference won’t make a massive difference to steaming. Using the machine in a different way to how it’s designed to be used might though.

          e.g. if you get the steam boosting and then prep the shot, it might start falling during the shot, to prevent the HX getting too warm, issues like that. I always think a Video is very useful to diagnose these issues. A video taken from a machine that’s been on for at least 40 minutes, not touched until the videos started and normal shot prep and production begins. Together with the steaming.

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              Hey guys, as suggested I made a video of my workflow: Youtube

              There is around 1 min delay between each cut (filmed by myself when pulling the shots and wife came to help on the steam part)

              Let me know what you think ^^

                MisterH1337 Hey guys, as suggested I made a video of my workflow: Youtube

                From your video I can clearly see that your machine is kept at a lower pressure than mine. Looking at your manometer, I can see that before you start your first shot you are below 0.5 bar. You then get a boost, but even at the peak you are lower than 1.5 bar, and as soon as you start steaming you go down to 1 bar or less. No wonder you are getting weak steaming performance.

                Compare this to my machine in the video below. In this video pressure before the shot is ~1 bar. This is higher than normal, because I didn’t let the machine settle completely from cold. The machine is usually ~0.5 bar before I start a shot. More importantly, look what happens on the manometer after the shot. Steam boost brings it to around 1.5 bar, and it stays there during steaming, giving a much better performance than what you get at 1 bar and below.

                I very much doubt the cause for this would be the change of settings in the firmware. We have seen people with this issue. As I said in the first post, I put my money on the issue being caused by a temp sensor (but I have not had it myself, so can’t tell you from my own experience).

                P.S. What water are you using in the machine? Could it be that you water is hard and you have scale on the temp sensor? Also, what is your brew temp switch set to (the one with zero, one and two behind the drip tray)? I see you have a thermometer on the group - do the readings you get from it correspond correctly to the temp setting you have selected?

                The Gicar can also be the problem, but as you have access to the readings you can check if they are faulty. DavecUK is better placed to tell you what you need to look for in the settings.

                Here is a video from mine for comparison:

                      MisterH1337 I’m wondering if firmware is updated and whether a slight change to the routine can help.

                      Before steaming, try a flush through the group…just 30 or 40 ml, wait until the steam boiler needle starts to rise….then begin steaming. Try and steam enough milk for both drinks at once.

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                        @DavecUK That is actually my normal routine, I normally make one drink everymoring to myself and I flush some water through the group before prepping the shot so the pressure will build up, but as @Doram said my machine simply can’t maintain a higher pressure than what is shown.

                        I’m wondering if the temp sensor could indeed be faulty, is the temp sensor you’re referring to the one that sits on top of the boiler? what does it probe? the HX or the steam boiler?
                        I have access to the readings and keep them on an historical influxdb and grafana :

                        What kind of readings will be a tell if something is faulty?
                        Regarding the group temp sensor, yep sometimes there is some variance with what the UART data says, with the maximum offset being up to 5 degrees. but when its stable the offset is around 1c.

                          MisterH1337 , I normally make one drink everymoring to myself and I flush some water through the group before prepping the shot so the pressure will build up

                          Sure, but I mean, to do it before steaming.

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                            I believe I try that a couple of times, no significant change was made, at the very least it may cause steam boost to activate again so the chances of going below 1bar are minimized.

                            Doram regarding the water type, I’m using tap water and the lelit water softener filter in the tank. Since I own the machine for 2 months now and this has been the problem from the very start, I would less think in the direction of limescale buildup.

                            I could throw in a bag of Oscar 90 to the tank if you think it will help soften the water more. I live in Tel-Aviv, Israel and the water around here is considered very hard according to local coffee community here.

                                Maybe re-seating the temp sensor might change something?

                                MisterH1337 I believe I try that a couple of times, no significant change was made, at the very least it may cause steam boost to activate again so the chances of going below 1bar are minimized.

                                Doram regarding the water type, I’m using tap water and the lelit water softener filter in the tank. Since I own the machine for 2 months now and this has been the problem from the very start, I would less think in the direction of limescale buildup.

                                I don’t do anything pre-shot to kick off the steam boost, and don’t find any need to do so. I brew, clean the basket and PF and then steam - and never have the issue seen in your video, so I don’t think your workflow it the problem. I think it’s the machine.

                                The temp probes at the top and bottom are the same part, so if you change one and it doesn’t help, you can use the part you removed to replace the other probe (unless you are unlucky and both your probes are faulty). Common sense is that a steam issue is caused by the probe at the top of the boiler, but because your machine seems to sit at a lower pressure than mine pre-shot, then maybe it’s the bottom probe? - I don’t know. This might be a question that Lelit might be able to answer (I would send them your video and ask them what they think. They have been very responsive when I had a question).

                                Having said all the above, your machine is only two months old and you said it was like that from the start. I would therefore contact the retailer and ask them to sort it out for you. It’s not something you should have to deal with yourself on a new machine, imo.

                                Re water, I have not used the Lelit in-tank filter so can’t tell you anything about it’s effectiveness, but you should be careful with using hard tap water. Scale in known to cause problems, and it is better to prevent them by using soft water rather than trying to fix them later.

                                    Doram Regarding contacting the retailer, At the moment, I do not trust the official lelit distributer in my country to have the know-how or even the spare parts to be able to sort this one out (many many complaints about them and their service). They might even blame me for connecting to the Gicar UART. So I would only go to them as last resort, and anyhow I would like to get a full diagnosis of the issue before I approach them. They will surely not swap out the machine for a brand new one, and I’m worried they will ruin the machine even more if they attempt to open it.

                                    I like the idea of swapping the two temp probes and see if it helps - meaning one of them was faulty. What tools do I need for that?

                                    BTW sent the video to Lelit, lets see what do they have to say :)

                                        MisterH1337 - all you do is to unscrew the sensors and swap. Make sure you use PTFE tape and don’t over tighten them when you put them back. Check out a Lelit insider on YouTube, I’m sure there’s a video on that.

                                            MediumRoastSteam Will look it up, thanks. Currently don’t have a hold on any PTFE tape, I’ll check the hardware stores next week.

                                            No special spanner is requiered?

                                                MisterH1337 - no. Just box standard tools, like a spanner and/or sockets.

                                                Here it is!

                                                Now, what I don’t know is, should one of your probes be faulty, will you still experience issues, albeit maybe different ones?

                                                    Going to the retailer tomorrow, will update here what came of it.

                                                    @Doram I’m at a complete loss here.
                                                    The retailer acknowledged the issue and changed the temp sensor right away on the spot in front of me.
                                                    He then demonstrated the machine after warmup operating at 1.6bar going down to 1.2 minimum while opening the valve for 30s.

                                                    I walked out happy and when I returned home and tested the machine thw results are exactly what I experienced previously. Not going above 1.2 after steam boost at all🥺 I’ll let it completely cool down and try again in the evening.

                                                    The only difference I can think of is maybe the water they used at the retailer lab were softer?

                                                      MisterH1337 @Doram I’m at a complete loss here.
                                                      The retailer acknowledged the issue and changed the temp sensor right away on the spot in front of me.
                                                      He then demonstrated the machine after warmup operating at 1.6bar going down to 1.2 minimum while opening the valve for 30s.

                                                      I walked out happy and when I returned home and tested the machine thw results are exactly what I experienced previously. Not going above 1.2 after steam boost at all🥺 I’ll let it completely cool down and try again in the evening.

                                                      The only difference I can think of is maybe the water they used at the retailer lab were softer?

                                                      Which sensor did they replace? Was it the one at the top of the boiler? Did you see if the sensor they removed had any signs of scale on it?

                                                      How long did the retailer warm up the machine for when it went down to 1.2 bar, and what temp setting was it on (on the switch behind the drip tray)? My machine settles just above 0.6 bar after 24 minutes. Temp is currently set to low (setting 0), but it’s the same on setting 1.

                                                      Unless there is something really weird going on with your water, I can’s see how water can instantly cause this difference in behaviour. Hard water may cause problems but scaling doesn’t happen instantly so I don’t think that would explain why the pressure is too low at home but fine at the retailers’. You could try to use some bottled water to confirm this isn’t a water issue but I doubt this will help.

                                                      Calling in @DavecUK and MediumRoastSteam to see if they have any idea as to what is going on.

                                                            They replaced the one at the top and it seemed pretty clean.

                                                            They probably warmed it up for almost an hour. Coffee mode ( switch set to I) and PID set to hottest (setting 2, group temp 96)

                                                            I tried at home with the same settings..
                                                            Tonight when I’m back from work I’ll do another run.

                                                              This is an interesting read. There was a member on CFUK, which I kept in touch via PM for a while after he pretty much gave up on the retailer and machine. The retailer replaced the temp probes, and even the Gicar box I believe, but eventually reverted to the same erratic behaviour. It would take him like 90 seconds to steam 200ml of milk. It was painful to watch, and he wasn’t doing anything wrong.

                                                              Eventually the retailer gave up on him saying that the machine was perfectly fine, and, ultimately, he gave up all together on the machine.

                                                              @MisterH1337 - I’m not saying you both have the same issue, but, it might be wise to keep on top of things, and even request a new machine from the retailer, or even compare yours (and a new one there) side by side to make sure there’s no other underlying issue.

                                                              Are you sure the retailer wasn’t using the machine in steam priority mode when they showed it to you?