Waisted Baskets?

JHCCoffee

Decent sells a Waisted and also an Extremely Waisted basket. https://decentespresso.com/basket

They state that: This sort of basket is very appropriate if you are using medium to dark roasted beans and prefer the classic, thick Italian lever shot style. These baskets are narrower at the bottom than the top. This allows them to copy the style of espresso made from lever machines, which use much narrower baskets. The narrower basket produces a thicker coffee puck, which in terms gives you a thicker espresso, with less channelling and more consistency. The resulting espresso is chocolatey, easy to drink. The downside is less flavor complexity, and so these baskets are not appropriate for lighter roasts.

Has anyone had an experience with this type of basket? I do like classic Italian ristretto espresso shots.

And what about 22g baskets, as per Decent:

22g baskets are used either to make thick espresso with darker roasts, or to make ristrettos from lighter roasts that otherwise would be too sour or have taste defects. This will tend to make a shot with 22g of beans and 20g to 30g of espresso in the cup. If you are using a 9 bar espresso machine with very light beans and tend to get sour espressos or unpleasant flavors, you should consider a 22g basket and making this style of ristretto shot. Such a large dose will also help you avoid channeling.

Thoughts? Experiences? Comments?

Raja123

JHCCoffee

I have the waisted baskets, the DE1, and a Strietman CT2. I’m not sure what your point of reference is for a thick, lever shot, but… I found they don’t come close. The puck needs to be a lot thicker to get the amount of body produced by a 14g basket on a 49mm group. If you step up to 18g or 20g baskets on a 49mm group, it’s in a different league altogether. I let JB know on the Decent basecamp chat group also.

JonWoo187

Decent’s philosophy is ‘waisted’ at times, lmao… Sure the size, shape, hole pattern makes a difference, but IMBHO it’s one of those variables that some way overthink. Then they end up chasing tail trying to figure their system out.

dfk41

I have gone to the same dentist for 39 years. Two years ago he retired and sold to a national chain, Perfect Smile. In the 39 years, I can remember having two x-rays. Under the new regime, my twice yearly visits are like running the gauntlet. Every 6 months I am told I need x-rays but not told what for. I am told the hygienist needs to see me…..plain and simple upselling. For those not sure what I am on about, it is decided that if you walk in to buy one service or product, then if they can sell you a second thats great additional revenue and it is free…..remember Ronnie Barker in Open all hours?

You do not need 85% of the absolute crud people try and offload onto you. There are a lot of products that on paper might make a difference to your shot, but there are already so many other variables in making a shot, I would not worry about wasted (pun intended) baskets!

Doram

dfk41 I am told the hygienist needs to see me…..plain and simple upselling.

Every visit to the dentist feels like a sales pitch, and they are getting more aggressive every year. While I have gotten used to it in most areas in life, when it’s done for health services it’s really appalling (but this comment is probably more suited to the grrrr thread).

Redla

Agreed on the above, the odd wall shape will probably lead to more channelling anyway.

DavecUK

Doram Every visit to the dentist feels like a sales pitch, and they are getting more aggressive every year. While I have gotten used to it in most areas in life, when it’s done for health services it’s really appalling (but this comment is probably more suited to the grrrr thread).

I go to a private dentist and he is very good…not cheap, but does good work and all of it in my best interest. Definitely never a sales pitch, just does what needs to be done to preserve my teeth.

Only once did he suggest redoing my front crowns because the Denplan dentist did such a poor job with them in terms of materials and aesthetics. they were gold reinforced (inside and the backs were gold), which means they didn’t look very good in lustre, colour and a black line around the top. He said they don’t need doing and will last many more years, but he just felt they looked really bad. I had the high quality bonded porcelain he suggested and not only were they a much better fit, but colour and lustre looked totally natural. This was probably over 10 years ago now.

Overall, it’s probably cost me less than my Denplan dentist ever did as all he seemed to do was drill and fill…anything else he sent me down the road for. I got 2 hygienist appointments (15 minutes) a year and 1 check-up (X rays not included) for this I was charged £32 month almost 13 years ago.

With my private dentist I paid £24, per month, although last month it went up to £28…for this I get 2 check-ups a year, free x-rays, and 4 hygienist appointments each lasting 30 minutes.

So it’s horses for courses, private dentistry can be good if you can find a good one. My dentist is quite a distance from me.

Pompeyexile

Got my dentist checkup today. My other half went just before crimbo and new dentist tried to convince her that she would really benefit from teeth whitening.

She came back all giddy and I had to remind her that we went down that route years ago and it made no real discernable difference except to her bank balance. Funnily enough, not long after that there was a documentry on the telly investigating just that, teeth whitening and not one expert/scientist in the field of teeth thought they were any good agreeing that any differences are so minimal it is just not worth it.

That Holywood smile is either achieved by the use something very harsh on your teeth enamel that in the long term is not good or very expensive veneers or even a whole new set of fake choppers.

Well, that is what I think…unless of course you know different? I am always willing to learn.

Platypus

I’ve never owned a Decent but in general I find them really useful when a high flow basket is proving too tricky. For me they are a really useful addition when you don’t want the high extractions and flow of many more modern style baskets.

JHCCoffee

Platypus I’ve never owned a Decent but in general I find them really useful when a high flow basket is proving too tricky. For me they are a really useful addition when you don’t want the high extractions and flow of many more modern style baskets.

Thanks for the feedback, @Platypus . Could you be more specific. What situations or coffee types do you find them useful for?

And … does Decent’s statement about this basket jive with your experience?

Platypus

Quote:“ Could you be more specific. What situations or coffee types do you find them useful for”?
JHCCoffee
Other peoples experiences may be completely different to mine but I find they are a good fall back if your chasing a finer and finer grind with poor results. Shorter ratios as in 1:1 1:1.5 can rescue some beans particularly if aided by a waisted/chamfered/low flow basket.

JammyDodger

The thing I like and appreciate about my DE1 and the approach Decent take to coffee, is that it can be customised to your specific use case. Most machines have a set amount of headspace, a standard basket, and a fixed profile. Decent allow you to be flexible and offer different options to alter headspace and basket shape/size to tweak things to your preferred roast level. Is this useful for everyone? Almost certainly not. I imagine most people would rather have a machine that pulls one type of shot and does it well, and they don’t need to think about whether they have optimised the profile/basket to the coffee they are using. I like having the option though, and enjoy chasing infinitesimally diminishing returns 😂

JHCCoffee

Raja123

My first machine (too long ago) was a Breville DuoPro, which I heavily modded with a brass grouphead, IMS screen and baskets, bottomless PTF, and a dimmer mod. With temp surfing, and playing the dimmer to pre-infuse and also mimic a lever, I was able to get this machine to produce as good a tasting milk drink as my Decent today. I think part of that was the 54mm basket, which was (by definition) deeper.

Raja123

JHCCoffee

These are the types of shots I pull with dark roasts. The waisted baskets on the de1 don’t come close to achieving this:

I use the decent for light roasts that need pulling beyond 1:3. Everything else light to ultra dark goes through the strietman ct2.

little_tipple

speaking as a dentist, I can’t help but notice this thread has gone a little astray…🤣

JHCCoffee

Back to coffee.

I recently took delivery of the 14g Slightly Waisted Basket. I also watched John’s video on their research on this basket. I then ran it with their recommended profile, with a medium (City) roast Nicaraguan Decaf Blend.

It effectively is the “Espresso in the 80’s” profile, which includes a pre-infusion flow rate of 8 ml per sec and a 20 second pre-infusion setting, that moves on at 4 BAR, followed by 4 sec Rise and Hold at 9 BAR for 4 seconds, and then a Decline for 35 seconds to 6 BAR. Temps were (as recommended) set low: 82, 80, 80 and 72C ! They recommended a 1:1 ratio for medium to dark roast coffees, and longer for lighter roasts.

Shot 1 at Niche 9.5 actually ran 4 seconds pre-inf, 13 secs pour, 18 secs total, 9 BAR, 8 to 1 ml per sec, 83 to 80C. Shot 2 at 8.0 on the Niche ran somewhat slower, 1 ml per second. The coffee that I tried it with is a medium (City or City+) roast. The 1:1 tasted really sour, even at finer grinds. The 1:2 also tasted sour (no improvement). Both were sink shots.

I then tried this coffee with my normal Baristo Pro (IMS) 18g basket and a modifield Default profile, at a 1:2 ratio; ok but not great strength; would like more body; still abit sour and no flavour nuances. While I actually enjoyed this coffee at a local cafe that focuses on this particular bean, at home this coffee tastes much better as a V60.

Subject to further testing with other beans, should I give up on this basket? Or this coffee? Or Both?

LMSC

JHCCoffee home this coffee tastes much better as a V60.

JHCCoffee The 1:1 tasted really sour, even at finer grinds. The 1:2 also tasted sour (no improvement). Both were sink shots.

JHCCoffee I then tried this coffee with my normal Baristo Pro (IMS) 18g basket and a modifield Default profile, at a 1:2 ratio; ok but not great strength; would like more body; still abit sour and no flavour nuances.

Neither I have Decent nor have experimented this profile. I would restrict my observations only on the above.

If V60 is so much better, then the bag is good.
Your think your shots are sour on two baskets. IMHO, the baskets are fine.
IIRC, we have been reading this sour shots from you for a long time. We are sorry you are still finding issues with the sour taste, while it is admirable you are seriously persisting and continuing your passion with coffee to rid of the sour taste you are experiencing. 👏👌🤞
Considering the above observations, I am sorry I think it may be either a brew malfunction or something else.
Perhaps, you may want to try with the same setting (ex: 20s PI) as suggested in his video as you have tried 4s and 8s and try going even finer.
On the Evo, I prefer the drops into my cup around 8-10s. Thanks to the Evo and the deeper 54mm basket, the coffee is drinkable even if I get drops below the 6s. Personally, I tend to take the drops falling into the cup at 6s requiring finer grind and anything more than 10s coarser settings.
Could you describe what exactly do you mean by sour please? For me, it is mouth puckering. I drink a lot of decaf.
IMO, the strength of the coffee from V60 cannot be compared to espresso as we know it is a thick concentrated liquid. Do you drink it as an esprssso? If yes, you might dilute it as an Americano and see if tastes better. 😊

Edit:

Sorry if you do not find these observations helpful or find them upsetting. :-)

Raja123

JHCCoffee I’ve had a lot more success for 1:1 and lower ratios by using the 22g decent basket (the 24g will be better still). You need a sufficiently thick puck for the types of shots you want to pull. The waisted baskets aren’t quite restrictive enough for some coffees and that profile. If you use the 22 or 24g basket, you’ll have sufficient puck resistance to pull 7g ristrettos or higher ratio shots if thats what you prefer. The body and mouthfeel of the shot will also be better with the 22g and 24g baskets (though still not what I can get from the CT2).

Just for your reference: I couldn’t grind Coffee Compass Wild Ethipoian ultra dark roast fine enough for the waisted baskets. I went down to 90um from chirp on the Bentwood V63, and couldn’t go finer because it clogged up the grinder. With the Decent 22g basket, I can grind the same beans at 150um from chirp to pull a 1:1 shot.

Cuprajake

Try a different profile

Do you know the machine it was pulled on at the cafe?

Go basic first, normal 9 bar shot, then try a 6bar

Dark coffee extracts fast

dfk41

Far be it for me to criticise, but as an onlooker who has never laid hands on a Decent, to me, Decent appear to be a bit of a production machine. They continually post content about the latest atom splitting thing they have discovered. These moments are usually capable of making the slightest difference to a shot, that is if you can actually appreciate the difference as an individual. They have also re-written the entire back catalogue of ancillary equipment used in the coffee making process. The stuff is so expensive that only the ardent, loyal fan base would normally consider it. We all like to own nice well made kit though. As I said, I am certainly not knocking Decent. Brand loyalty is a most rewarding thing and as an ardent owner I have supported a few over the years.