MetalDave When I crack the lever and run it without a portafilter initially, it quickly rises in pressure and then levels out

How can the pressure rise without a portafilter in place? Maybe I’m missing something. In all honesty, I don’t actually know what the puristika manometer would register if the flow control valve (on the E61 mushroom) is fully shut and the pump is running. I think it would record to whatever the OPV is set to, but I am not 100% sure.

I think I read somewhere that the flow control, in its fully “closed position” should still allow some water out. Is yours like so?

MetalDave if I leave the machine powered on and at rest with the lever in the down position and flow control cracked, eventually I see the pressure drop to zero and this issue repeats itself. I was under the impression it should maintain a resting pressure of 1-3bars, and wonder if there is an issue with the OPV or another component.

Eventually the pressure will equalise and your manometer will register zero. I don’t think that’s an issue.

        MetalDave 1. Machine is turned on, allowed to preheat for 30-60min at minimum. Group head is to temp, boiler to temp. Lever left at down position, flow control left cracked.

        1. When I crack the lever and run it without a portafilter initially, it quickly rises in pressure and then levels out. If I subsequently try to pull a shot, or, run it with a backflush/blind basket - it does not build any pressure, pump just runs and runs.
        2. If I switch that off, open the flow control and leave the lever at centre position for 15 seconds or so, and try again, it then ramps up and builds pressure.

        4 If I leave the machine powered on and at rest with the lever in the down position and flow control cracked, eventually I see the pressure drop to zero and this issue repeats itself. I was under the impression it should maintain a resting pressure of 1-3bars, and wonder if there is an issue with the OPV or another component.

        1. Always leave the flow control approx. ⅓ open due to expansion and extraction…never leave it closed or “cracked” which I take as almost closed, although it’s an imprecise term.
        2. By crack the lever do you mean lifting full and the pump running (not the middle position between the cams), when you say it quickly rises in pressure…what pressure?
        3. is this pressure building on the gauge on the front panel, or the one you have fitted on the group (I assume you have fitted and extra one on the group. In fact for 2 above which gauges are reading what?
        4. On which gauge

        Your next steps should be first answer my questions briefly and fully…then depending on the answers you may need to disassemble the flow control….which hopefully you have done already to (a), check there is enough lubricant (b) ensure you crack it before is seizes on over time so you can maintain it every 3 months.

        https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/blog/745-lelit-flow-control-valve-and-coffee-sensor-version

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            DavecUK

            Dave, thank you so much for all the awesome information and knowledge!

            I do always leave the flow control open, I should’ve been more clear that by cracked I meant open. As for pressure rise when the lever is fully actuated I was referring to the machines pressure gauge, not the flow control gauge.

            I have not pulled the flow control apart, as the machine is new and only been with me about 10 days - given the first one was bad, I didn’t want to start mucking around with this in case it needed to be returned, again.

            I’m going to plan to do exactly what you said, however once I am certain that I will be keeping this machine. I can’t imagine using it for a couple of weeks pulling 2-3 doubles a day will be an issue - but if you believe it will be please definitely let me know!

            1. It worked perfectly this morning, so I couldn’t replicate the intermittent issue. I’m wondering if this is from a headspace/gap in the boiler, allowing some air to enter and the pump is losing prime- this was suggested to me and it made sense, but I would love your take on it.

            Thanks again!

            -Dave

                MetalDave I’m using numbering so there is no misunderstandings (please do the same for me), I “think” I have worked out what it is you are describing and on what gauges.

                1. OK I understand now
                2. You didn’t answer this, also didn’t clarify on which gauge it’s not building pressure, group (if you have one, see 3) or panel gauge?
                3. I understand and from your answer I “assume” you have one on the group as well, is this correct, just so we’re sure? I also forgot to ask about your term “centre” position for the brew lever, can you please explain, do you mean fully up, or the position as described in point 2??
                4. Then this is completely normal
                5. I told ECM what to put in the boiler to avoid a headspace issue, so it would take a significant leak to cause that…that leak would really only happen when hot. It would also quickly fill the headspace when the pump runs.

                Does the pump sound normal when it’s not building pressure? Check by starting a shot then removing the feed feed tube from the water tank as the pump is running, note the sound change as the tube empties. Note how it sounds…

                Make a video showing the problem, if you can, unlisted on YT, then paste the link here.

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                    DavecUK You didn’t answer this, also didn’t clarify on which gauge it’s not building pressure, group (if you have one, see 3) or panel gauge?

                    He said “cracked” means open, and he should’ve been clearer. He also said the gauge is the panel gauge on the machine - not on the group.

                        MediumRoastSteam He said “cracked” means open, and he should’ve been clearer. He also said the gauge is the panel gauge on the machine - not on the group.

                        It was a question aimed at a different comment he made…where he didn’t specify which gauge…and I’m still not 100% clear he has a gauge on the group.

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                            DavecUK

                            Hey Dave, sorry for all the confusion. I’m battling COVID and not the sharpest right now. I have no idea where the "5.

                            " came from in my response as I didn’t number it.

                            1. It is the machine pressure gauge, not the group mounted gauge. I do mean lifting the lever fully and activating the pump. Pressure on the machines gauge rises.
                            2. I do have a group mounted pressure gauge. I have three positions - fully down, middle without pump activated, an fully up with the pump activated. Macnine gauge rises to 9.5, flow gauge stays at 0.
                            3. You indicated this is normal. I wasn’t sure what you meant.
                            4. This occurrs generally when hot - timer kicks it on at 6am, and Im usually seeing this around 7-8am when I get around to making espresso in the am.

                            The pump sounds normal. I will try that with the tube removal from water supply when I pull a shot.

                            I tried to make a video this morning, but the problem did not replicate or occur.

                                MetalDave

                                1. You referred to the centre position in an earlier reply, which of these 3 positions was it

                                MetalDave If I switch that off, open the flow control and leave the lever at center position for 15 seconds or so, and try again, it then ramps up and builds pressure.

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                                      1. I mean this comment, if it’s showing on the front panel gauge…this is normal behaviour. Due to cold water entering the boiler, raising the pressure via expansion via heating. As this is a hydraulic effect, even the slightes leakage of water drops the pressure significantly

                                      MetalDave I was under the impression it should maintain a resting pressure of 1-3bars, and wonder if there is an issue with the OPV or another component.

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                                        DavecUK

                                        1. Sorry, fully up and pump activated.
                                        2. Gotcha, so - sounds like my machine is working properly then, correct?

                                          MediumRoastSteam Yes, if the flow control is fully closed - the puristika gauge shows what I have the OPV set at. Fully closed flow control does not allow even a drop out on my machine. Thank you also for your help, I’m definitely learning a LOT here quickly!

                                            so from what you have said so far and as you are pretty much always using the front panel gauge when you say it does and doesn’t make pressure sometimes….this rules out a blockage in the flow control system.

                                            Secondly the statement that it doesn’t make pressure sometimes until you do that thing with the lever, sort of doesn’t make sense, as even if the boiler level dropped a bit, it would pretty quickly fill…unless water was finding it’s way back to the tank somehow. This can’t happen when the machine is cold, it can only happen when the boiler is hot….so a while after it heats up.

                                            Vibration pumps usually prime fine when dry and the inlet tube is dry, but you never know.

                                            • Check the tank tube to the pump is full…mine is a prototype, so the tubes are clear. I think production models used black tubing?
                                            • Check the tube isn’t kinked
                                            • Squeeze as much water as you can out of the tube, see if that recreates the problem?

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                                              DavecUK Tubes are braided stainless wrapped, so squeezing them isn’t really an option…and they definitely aren’t kinked.

                                              I’m saying that sometimes actuating the lever and pump with a blind filter doesnt make pressure on the front panel gauge. This is the issue and concern. This issue is when the machine is hot and has been on for 1-2 hours.

                                                  MetalDave I’m saying that sometimes actuating the lever and pump with a blind filter doesnt make pressure on the front panel gauge. This is the issue and concern.

                                                  To be clear… You say “it doesn’t make pressure on the front panel gauge”. What reading do you get on the group manometer when that happens? I’d expect the flow control device to be fully open for any pressure to register on the group gauge.

                                                      MediumRoastSteam @DavecUK I answered this above:

                                                      “I do have a group mounted pressure gauge. I have three positions - fully down, middle without pump activated, an fully up with the pump activated. Machine gauge rises to 9.5, flow gauge stays at 0.”

                                                      Flow control gauge only shows pressure if there is a blind filter or puck under it, or if the flow control is closed.

                                                      If you think this might be a faulty pump, I will keep an ear (and eye on that) - the problen did not duplicate itself again this morning, so hopefully this was an anomaly that has passed.

                                                      Edit - to further clarify, when the problem occurrs, the group gauge just stalls at whatever resting pressure it is at - either zero or sometimes 2 bar.

                                                          MetalDave Flow control gauge only shows pressure if there is a blind filter or puck under it, or if the flow control is closed.

                                                          The flow control gauge on the group (let’s call it the group pressure gauge from now on) Should not show any pressure with the flow control closed, unless it’s against a blind filter and fully closed is not completely closed. With no portafilter the group gauge should never show pressure.

                                                          MetalDave If you think this might be a faulty pump, I will keep an ear (and eye on that) - the problen did not duplicate itself again this morning, so hopefully this was an anomaly that has passed.

                                                          I hope so, pumps can be intermittently faulty, but it’s rare. It could also be something blocking thew inlet side sometimes.

                                                          Are you using a water filter attached to the end of the pump inlet hose?

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                                                                DavecUK Man, I really do have covid brain. Yes, zero on the group pressure gauge. Meant on the front panel gauge.

                                                                I am using the stock water filter that the machine came with, which is on the pump inlet hose. I also have an in-tank softener as well, and the tank rubber gasket for the lid is intact.