Hello! I'm new to the forum, but not new to espresso. I spent my first 4 years pulling from a well-dialed Gaggia Classic Pro, and recently bit the bullet and bought an ECM Purstika with pre-installed flow-control from what I thought to be a reputable distributor. The first machine arrived with a bad OPV out of the box - after a difficult return/exchange process, the second machine arrived and for the first week seemed to work wonderfully. I had it dialed-in really well, and was pulling pseudo-slayer shots with the flow control that were honestly better than my local cafe and then some. When the machine works properly, it is absolutely amazing! Herein is where the problem arises, and, unfortunately - the distributor is less than helpful (And I still have not received a response from ECM…) Machine is turned on, allowed to preheat for 30-60min at minimum. Group head is to temp, boiler to temp. Lever left at down position, flow control left cracked. I used Poland Springs and an in-tank softner, and am religious about my cleaning and upkeep. I did replace the shower screen and group head gasket with a precision screen and silicone gasket, otherwise stock. When I crack the lever and run it without a portafilter initially, it quickly rises in pressure and then levels out. If I subsequently try to pull a shot, or, run it with a backflush/blind basket - it does not build any pressure, pump just runs and runs. If I switch that off, open the flow control and leave the lever at center position for 15 seconds or so, and try again, it then ramps up and builds pressure. This is frustrating, as if its the first morning shot pull I end up wasting a puck and having to grind again. I'm not sure if this is normal behavior or if there is an issue per-se. If I leave the machine powered on and at rest with the lever in the down position and flow control cracked, eventually I see the pressure drop to zero and this issue repeats itself. I was under the impression it should maintain a resting pressure of 1-3bars, and wonder if there is an issue with the OPV or another component. Any help you folks can offer would be wonderful - I appreciate the knowledge and experience you cand lend! Cheers, Dave

Welcome to the forum, plenty of people here can help you. When you say the preinstalled flow control, you mean the one installed on the top of the group? or do you mean the one that's on the front panel?

@"DavecUK"#p59142 Thanks Dave! the one on top of the E61, not the OPV on the right side.

> @"MetalDave"#p59133 When I crack the lever and run it without a portafilter initially, it quickly rises in pressure and then levels out How can the pressure rise without a portafilter in place? Maybe I’m missing something. In all honesty, I don’t actually know what the puristika manometer would register if the flow control valve (on the E61 mushroom) is fully shut and the pump is running. I *think* it would record to whatever the OPV is set to, but I am not 100% sure. I think I read somewhere that the flow control, in its fully “closed position” should still allow some water out. Is yours like so? > @"MetalDave"#p59133 if I leave the machine powered on and at rest with the lever in the down position and flow control cracked, eventually I see the pressure drop to zero and this issue repeats itself. I was under the impression it should maintain a resting pressure of 1-3bars, and wonder if there is an issue with the OPV or another component. Eventually the pressure will equalise and your manometer will register zero. I don’t think that’s an issue.

> @"MetalDave"#p59133 1. Machine is turned on, allowed to preheat for 30-60min at minimum. Group head is to temp, boiler to temp. Lever left at down position, flow control left cracked. > > 2. When I crack the lever and run it without a portafilter initially, it quickly rises in pressure and then levels out. If I subsequently try to pull a shot, or, run it with a backflush/blind basket - it does not build any pressure, pump just runs and runs. > 3. If I switch that off, open the flow control and leave the lever at centre position for 15 seconds or so, and try again, it then ramps up and builds pressure. > > 4 If I leave the machine powered on and at rest with the lever in the down position and flow control cracked, eventually I see the pressure drop to zero and this issue repeats itself. I was under the impression it should maintain a resting pressure of 1-3bars, and wonder if there is an issue with the OPV or another component. 1. Always leave the flow control approx. 1/3 open due to expansion and extraction…never leave it closed or "cracked" which I take as almost closed, although it's an imprecise term. 2. By crack the lever do you mean lifting full and the pump running (not the middle position between the cams), when you say it quickly rises in pressure…what pressure? 3. is this pressure building on the gauge on the front panel, or the one you have fitted on the group (I assume you have fitted and extra one on the group. In fact for 2 above which gauges are reading what? 4. On which gauge Your next steps should be first answer my questions briefly and fully…then depending on the answers you may need to disassemble the flow control….which hopefully you have done already to (a), check there is enough lubricant (b) ensure you crack it before is seizes on over time so you can maintain it every 3 months. https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/blog/745-lelit-flow-control-valve-and-coffee-sensor-version

@"MetalDave"#p59196 I'm using numbering so there is no misunderstandings (please do the same for me), I "think" I have worked out what it is you are describing and on what gauges. 1. OK I understand now 2. You didn't answer this, also didn't clarify on which gauge it's not building pressure, group (if you have one, see 3) or panel gauge? 3. I understand and from your answer I "assume" you have one on the group as well, is this correct, just so we're sure? I also forgot to ask about your term "centre" position for the brew lever, can you please explain, do you mean fully up, or the position as described in point 2?? 4. Then this is completely normal 5. I told ECM what to put in the boiler to avoid a headspace issue, so it would take a significant leak to cause that…that leak would really only happen when hot. It would also quickly fill the headspace when the pump runs. Does the pump sound normal when it's not building pressure? *Check by starting a shot then removing the feed feed tube from the water tank as the pump is running, note the sound change as the tube empties. Note how it sounds…* Make a video showing the problem, if you can, unlisted on YT, then paste the link here.

@"MetalDave"#p59209 3. You referred to the centre position in an earlier reply, which of these 3 positions was it > @"MetalDave"#p59133 If I switch that off, open the flow control and leave the lever at center position for 15 seconds or so, and try again, it then ramps up and builds pressure.

ECM Puristika - need help diagnosing

DavecUK

MetalDave 1. Machine is turned on, allowed to preheat for 30-60min at minimum. Group head is to temp, boiler to temp. Lever left at down position, flow control left cracked.

When I crack the lever and run it without a portafilter initially, it quickly rises in pressure and then levels out. If I subsequently try to pull a shot, or, run it with a backflush/blind basket - it does not build any pressure, pump just runs and runs.

If I switch that off, open the flow control and leave the lever at centre position for 15 seconds or so, and try again, it then ramps up and builds pressure.

4 If I leave the machine powered on and at rest with the lever in the down position and flow control cracked, eventually I see the pressure drop to zero and this issue repeats itself. I was under the impression it should maintain a resting pressure of 1-3bars, and wonder if there is an issue with the OPV or another component.

Always leave the flow control approx. ⅓ open due to expansion and extraction…never leave it closed or “cracked” which I take as almost closed, although it’s an imprecise term.
By crack the lever do you mean lifting full and the pump running (not the middle position between the cams), when you say it quickly rises in pressure…what pressure?
is this pressure building on the gauge on the front panel, or the one you have fitted on the group (I assume you have fitted and extra one on the group. In fact for 2 above which gauges are reading what?
On which gauge

Your next steps should be first answer my questions briefly and fully…then depending on the answers you may need to disassemble the flow control….which hopefully you have done already to (a), check there is enough lubricant (b) ensure you crack it before is seizes on over time so you can maintain it every 3 months.

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/blog/745-lelit-flow-control-valve-and-coffee-sensor-version

MetalDave

DavecUK

Dave, thank you so much for all the awesome information and knowledge!

I do always leave the flow control open, I should’ve been more clear that by cracked I meant open. As for pressure rise when the lever is fully actuated I was referring to the machines pressure gauge, not the flow control gauge.

I have not pulled the flow control apart, as the machine is new and only been with me about 10 days - given the first one was bad, I didn’t want to start mucking around with this in case it needed to be returned, again.

I’m going to plan to do exactly what you said, however once I am certain that I will be keeping this machine. I can’t imagine using it for a couple of weeks pulling 2-3 doubles a day will be an issue - but if you believe it will be please definitely let me know!

It worked perfectly this morning, so I couldn’t replicate the intermittent issue. I’m wondering if this is from a headspace/gap in the boiler, allowing some air to enter and the pump is losing prime- this was suggested to me and it made sense, but I would love your take on it.

Thanks again!

-Dave

DavecUK

MetalDave I’m using numbering so there is no misunderstandings (please do the same for me), I “think” I have worked out what it is you are describing and on what gauges.

OK I understand now
You didn’t answer this, also didn’t clarify on which gauge it’s not building pressure, group (if you have one, see 3) or panel gauge?
I understand and from your answer I “assume” you have one on the group as well, is this correct, just so we’re sure? I also forgot to ask about your term “centre” position for the brew lever, can you please explain, do you mean fully up, or the position as described in point 2??
Then this is completely normal
I told ECM what to put in the boiler to avoid a headspace issue, so it would take a significant leak to cause that…that leak would really only happen when hot. It would also quickly fill the headspace when the pump runs.

Does the pump sound normal when it’s not building pressure? Check by starting a shot then removing the feed feed tube from the water tank as the pump is running, note the sound change as the tube empties. Note how it sounds…

Make a video showing the problem, if you can, unlisted on YT, then paste the link here.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK You didn’t answer this, also didn’t clarify on which gauge it’s not building pressure, group (if you have one, see 3) or panel gauge?

He said “cracked” means open, and he should’ve been clearer. He also said the gauge is the panel gauge on the machine - not on the group.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam He said “cracked” means open, and he should’ve been clearer. He also said the gauge is the panel gauge on the machine - not on the group.

It was a question aimed at a different comment he made…where he didn’t specify which gauge…and I’m still not 100% clear he has a gauge on the group.

MetalDave

DavecUK

Hey Dave, sorry for all the confusion. I’m battling COVID and not the sharpest right now. I have no idea where the "5.

" came from in my response as I didn’t number it.

It is the machine pressure gauge, not the group mounted gauge. I do mean lifting the lever fully and activating the pump. Pressure on the machines gauge rises.
I do have a group mounted pressure gauge. I have three positions - fully down, middle without pump activated, an fully up with the pump activated. Macnine gauge rises to 9.5, flow gauge stays at 0.
You indicated this is normal. I wasn’t sure what you meant.
This occurrs generally when hot - timer kicks it on at 6am, and Im usually seeing this around 7-8am when I get around to making espresso in the am.

The pump sounds normal. I will try that with the tube removal from water supply when I pull a shot.

I tried to make a video this morning, but the problem did not replicate or occur.

DavecUK

MetalDave

You referred to the centre position in an earlier reply, which of these 3 positions was it

MetalDave If I switch that off, open the flow control and leave the lever at center position for 15 seconds or so, and try again, it then ramps up and builds pressure.

MetalDave

DavecUK

Sorry, fully up and pump activated.
Gotcha, so - sounds like my machine is working properly then, correct?

DavecUK

I mean this comment, if it’s showing on the front panel gauge…this is normal behaviour. Due to cold water entering the boiler, raising the pressure via expansion via heating. As this is a hydraulic effect, even the slightes leakage of water drops the pressure significantly

MetalDave I was under the impression it should maintain a resting pressure of 1-3bars, and wonder if there is an issue with the OPV or another component.

MetalDave

MediumRoastSteam Yes, if the flow control is fully closed - the puristika gauge shows what I have the OPV set at. Fully closed flow control does not allow even a drop out on my machine. Thank you also for your help, I’m definitely learning a LOT here quickly!

DavecUK

so from what you have said so far and as you are pretty much always using the front panel gauge when you say it does and doesn’t make pressure sometimes….this rules out a blockage in the flow control system.

Secondly the statement that it doesn’t make pressure sometimes until you do that thing with the lever, sort of doesn’t make sense, as even if the boiler level dropped a bit, it would pretty quickly fill…unless water was finding it’s way back to the tank somehow. This can’t happen when the machine is cold, it can only happen when the boiler is hot….so a while after it heats up.

Vibration pumps usually prime fine when dry and the inlet tube is dry, but you never know.

Check the tank tube to the pump is full…mine is a prototype, so the tubes are clear. I think production models used black tubing?
Check the tube isn’t kinked
Squeeze as much water as you can out of the tube, see if that recreates the problem?

MetalDave

DavecUK Tubes are braided stainless wrapped, so squeezing them isn’t really an option…and they definitely aren’t kinked.

I’m saying that sometimes actuating the lever and pump with a blind filter doesnt make pressure on the front panel gauge. This is the issue and concern. This issue is when the machine is hot and has been on for 1-2 hours.

MediumRoastSteam

MetalDave I’m saying that sometimes actuating the lever and pump with a blind filter doesnt make pressure on the front panel gauge. This is the issue and concern.

To be clear… You say “it doesn’t make pressure on the front panel gauge”. What reading do you get on the group manometer when that happens? I’d expect the flow control device to be fully open for any pressure to register on the group gauge.

DavecUK

It could just be a faulty pump.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam See you’re doing it now…😁

MetalDave

MediumRoastSteam @DavecUK I answered this above:

“I do have a group mounted pressure gauge. I have three positions - fully down, middle without pump activated, an fully up with the pump activated. Machine gauge rises to 9.5, flow gauge stays at 0.”

Flow control gauge only shows pressure if there is a blind filter or puck under it, or if the flow control is closed.

If you think this might be a faulty pump, I will keep an ear (and eye on that) - the problen did not duplicate itself again this morning, so hopefully this was an anomaly that has passed.

Edit - to further clarify, when the problem occurrs, the group gauge just stalls at whatever resting pressure it is at - either zero or sometimes 2 bar.

DavecUK

MetalDave Flow control gauge only shows pressure if there is a blind filter or puck under it, or if the flow control is closed.

The flow control gauge on the group (let’s call it the group pressure gauge from now on) Should not show any pressure with the flow control closed, unless it’s against a blind filter and fully closed is not completely closed. With no portafilter the group gauge should never show pressure.

MetalDave If you think this might be a faulty pump, I will keep an ear (and eye on that) - the problen did not duplicate itself again this morning, so hopefully this was an anomaly that has passed.

I hope so, pumps can be intermittently faulty, but it’s rare. It could also be something blocking thew inlet side sometimes.

Are you using a water filter attached to the end of the pump inlet hose?

MetalDave

DavecUK Man, I really do have covid brain. Yes, zero on the group pressure gauge. Meant on the front panel gauge.

I am using the stock water filter that the machine came with, which is on the pump inlet hose. I also have an in-tank softener as well, and the tank rubber gasket for the lid is intact.

DavecUK

MetalDave Remove the water filter and in tank softener…

MetalDave

DavecUK The issue continues, and I have noticed that the pump sound changes when it finally makes pressure. I tried removing those and no luck. I’m going to try to get a video tomorow am. It kicks on with the smart plug, preheats for about 45min and then I try using it when I wake. I leave the flow control open and lift the lever all the way, it rockets up quickly to 9bar then falls down to 2 bar. If I put a backflush disc in or close the flow all the way and lift the lever fully, it runs and runs and the pressure just stays at 2bar. If I raise and lower the lever several times, the pump noise eventually becomes louder and it then makes pressure. ECM has not responded to my email at all and its been over a week. I don’t know what else to do, thoughts?

DavecUK

MetalDave been over a week. I don’t know what else to do, thoughts?

I’ll wait for the video, but it does sound like the pump just might be faulty….