Cuprajake I think this and some other posts reflect the general misinformation people are provided with from all sides. This includes all politicians, government departments, advertising companies, large corporates etc. We are positively bombarded with misinformation dressed up to look real, or complicated maths to prove a point which is erroneous. I personally hate this, and I really don’t know how the British public can make any rational decisions when presented with all sorts of misinformation. I remember when I was working I had a team many were graduates and virtually none of them could work out percentages! E.g how to calculate 18% of 346 was beyond their capability. One with a 1st told me he hadn’t studied maths.

Basic statistics was also beyond them…so how does the general public have any chance of understanding some of this stuff.

Jake’s comment about the energy price cap is well-made, the price cap is not a meaningful number to the majority of people, they’re even having to have it explained, this isn’t the maximum they will pay. So I wonder why was ofgem ever allowed to quote the price cap in this way, why didn’t it just set a unit price for gas and electricity and the standing charge. That’s something everybody would have understood. Why won’t successive governments, and the Civil service change this. If I was ruler of the UK, it’s one of the first things I would change.

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    Cuprajake truss used to work for shell? not sure if true?

    That much is true, though it was a fair amount of time ago (her first post-Uni job from 1996 to 2000, qualifiying as a Management Accountant in the meantime - hardly a power broker, but people have careers). As is true that the wife of an ex-BP exec donated £100k to support her leadership campaign. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-donors-helped-bankroll-new-pm-drfz0qg96

    dfk41 Total nonsense matey.

    It’s the Treasury’s own estimate, and I would not exactly call Bloomberg a “Labour-friendly” source
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms

    The firms are based in the UK, and are expected to report those profits in the UK. The so-called analysis by GBN (hardly an unbiased outlet) is flawed as it mixes expected pre-tax profits with after tax profits to reach the sensationalistic claims of “overestimate of 1214%” - no, mate, you cannot compare apples (windfall pre-tax profits in 2023 and 2024) with pears (his incorrect “estimate” of after-tax 2022 profits); to start with, the tax rate of 65% doesn’t apply to all profits at the moment (only those coming from UK and continental shelf oil/gas). Secondly, 2021 (and 2022) numbers, which is where he gets the 40 billion from, are not particularly relevant to 2023-24 estimates, which is where the TREASURY’s estimate of £170 billion comes from.

    The Twitter screenshot from Joe Armitage (“Lead UK Political Analyst at GC”) is not sourced and does not come from someone I regard as authoritative - but in any case does not contain relevant numbers; it’s a time series of revenues from UK and continental shelf exploration from 2009 to 2021, not clear referring to which firm(s), and an estimate of cost and other income based on industry standards, not audited figures.

    I cannot find the Treasury’s estimates anywhere, despite Armitage’s claim that “a semi-competent browser” could (i.e. clearly not him, since he’s only posting something that is vaguely related), which is not surprising, since Bloomberg claim these are not published and have been leaked to them, so I wonder what that spreadsheet is, or how relevant to the rest of Tommy Slick’s “analysis” (very much in quotes). It would take me about 30 seconds to produce a similar spreadsheet showing whatever number we would like… and it would be a bit better than what he is using to ‘support’ his claims.

        Energy regulator Ofgem has said it will continue to announce the cap on household energy prices, despite the Government saying it would guarantee lower bills for customers.

        *Ofgem said that it plans to still make the announcements every three months, as it continues to regulate how much energy suppliers can charge for their services. Suppliers will then submit part of their regulated bill to each household, and the remainder to the Government.

        Following a query from the PA news agency, the regulator said: “The price cap still has a role in limiting profits in domestic retail and setting a maximum level suppliers can charge whether that level is subsidised or not”. It added that it will continue to announce the price cap over the next two years.

        ScottishPower chief executive Keith Anderson told PA: "This whole scheme is being introduced on the basis that the price cap remains and the methodology doesn’t change The price cap becomes the reference price as to what we charge.

        “So the £2,500 that was announced gets converted into a unit cost and everyone will get the bill based on their usage. I then put a submission into the central system that takes that usage and the differential between the £2,500 unit cost, and the cap at £3,500, and I get a cheque back for that differential.”

        He said that suppliers would continue buying and hedging energy in line with the way the price cap works. In effect the price cap then becomes a cap which limits how much the Government will need to pay, rather than the amount that households must pay.*

        Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

        Two the people having arguments about energy companies excess profits and the so called evidence being presented, please stop now. None of the numbers being used are correct, it’s not based in what’s UK taxable and it tries to predict the future. It’s all pure politics of the highest order.

        This thread is about energy prices, our experience, hints and tips we may have for eachother to save, fix, get deals, including using our machines more effectively. Sure, we can extend it to UK energy security and how we might solve it, nuclear, wind, solar etc. But keep it apolitical because it is, all governments, civil servants and politicians got us where we are today. Not just UK ones either…it’s taken them over 40 years to do this. And it’s the same for most of the other really big problems

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        re machines - im thankful the evo heats quickly

        Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

          Cuprajake An old chestnut that does the rounds regularly on HB is that it’s cheaper to keep the machine on, than turn it on off when you don’t need it. You will see all sorts of complicated reasons. Man math etc.

          The truth is, there is not a single situation or duration where turning the machine off when you are not using it, does not save energy. If there was, you would be able to create an over unity device.

          The real issue is one of convenience. "I want a coffee, I now have to wait 30 to 35 more minutes, or longer for some machines. With the Evo, that 15 minute wait seems even less because you would need 2 minutes to grab a cup, select your coffee grund and dose it.

          As for ANY steam boiler, switch it off once you have finished. If you need a latte 20 minutes later it will warm up very fast.

          Heat is a 4th power law, double the temp 4 times the heat loss (it’s like wind resistance). Hence the steam boiler being an important one.

          If you can wrap a tea towel around the group of a machine you’re leaving on…do so.

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              DavecUK I switch the boilers off and wrap a tea towel on the group when I switch the machine off during the day, so that when I turn the machine on again it warms up a bit faster - the boilers themselves only take 7 minutes to warm up from 25 degrees, so I turn them on later.

              I’ve been thinking that - unless I’m experimenting with different brewing temperatures - I’d like something a bit more permanent and insulating than a tea towel - a wood box or a 3-d plastic shell? If others are interested, maybe we can make a small lot.

              (BTW - double the temp, 16 times the heat loss according to Stefan-Boltzmann)

                  CoyoteOldMan (BTW - double the temp, 16 times the heat loss according to Stefan-Boltzmann)

                  Quite correct, shows how important it is. Of course that’s for a perfect black body. In an espresso machine it works out about 4 times. You can try it out yourself..set your Evo group to, 46C (if it will go that low) measure power consumption once in the steady state, then up it to 92 and remeasure…I’ll bet it’s about 4 times more power?

                  An interesting experiment for someone…. challenge thrown out there 😀

                  Giphy - tracee ellis ross challenge GIF

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                      Here is an interesting e-mail I got from British gas, because I’m on a fixed Tariff and like many of you may be wondering what to do as the price cap might be slightly better. @Cuprajake I suspect all the energy companies with fixed price tariffs may be doing something similar…the missive I received is below.

                      Hello

                      As you may have heard in the news, the new prime minister has announced the Energy Price Guarantee. This means the average household cost of energy will be capped at £2,500 per year from the 1st October. And will be frozen at this rate for the next two years.

                      What happens next

                      You’re currently on a fixed price tariff, so the Energy Price Guarantee will protect you in the same way that it protects customers on a standard variable tariff. We’re just working through the detail, and what this means for you. So, keep an eye out for an email from us.

                      At the moment, our customer service advisors don’t have any further information. So, the best thing to do is to wait for us to contact you or log in to your online account to find your latest tariff information.

                      You can keep up-to-date with the latest information on the energy market by visiting our dedicated web page, energy market news.

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                      I’d like to know who they surveyed for this average/typical household usage figure of 2900kw for electricity.

                      It works out at less than 8kw a day which is very low for a family let a lone, in my case, 2 adults.

                      Rough estimates;
                      Kettle, boiled 6 times for 3 mins, about 0.5kw
                      Oven/cooking for 30 mins, 0.5 - 1kw
                      Background usage (tv’s, wifi, smart stuff, fridges, gas heating/pumps) @200-300w, 4-6kw ish, can vary vastly for some, mine is about 4.5kw a day
                      Washing machine, if new, 0.5-0.7kw, if old, 1-1.5+kw on a standard/eco cycle.
                      Dishwasher, 0.5-1+kw
                      Lighting, not much if you’ve new LEDs. If not, 0.3-0.6kw during winter
                      Espresso, don’t think about it, just enjoy it.

                      It’s going to be tough for some people to keep it low over the winter, especially if they have ANY electrical heating

                        Del_UK It’s why they should make it so people can compare applies with apples. kW and standing charge are things we can directly compare. An average household….no.

                        For all I know their average household could be based on a family with 2 kids in a 3 bedroom flat, but of course it’s done this way to deliberately mislead. OFGEM was never fit for purpose. When I wasn’t billed for over 5 years, had no idea how much I owed, wasn’t told even how much per unit I was paying (so I couldn’t work it out) by Npower and of course couldn’t leave because I couldn’t settle…OFGEM and the energy Ombudsman did nothing.

                        Eventually I got a final bill, for almost £6K and given 2 weeks to pay it pending disconnection!! I was expected to magic this money out of my arse.

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                            Electricity is confusing to the vast majority of people which is why the average cost thing is used. I also find it annoying because I know my annual usage, I know current draw of appliances etc. Tell me unit cost and I can work it out cost of usage for myself.

                            But many people get confused. See the two posts above this referring to kW but meaning kWh. I’m sure both know the difference but still got confused by terminology. The average person won’t know the difference and many aren’t inclined to learn. It’s those people that the average annual cost descriptor is meant to help.

                            Never underestimate the capacity for people to misunderstand - plenty still think that what they are being told is that annual fuel bills for all are capped at £2.5k. It’s easy to say that it could be explained more clearly but the evidence exists for me to believe that matter how well explained this is many people all still misunderstand. I’d still like to see the proposed unit costs though.

                              DavecUK yeah, I don’t understand what’s the point of quoting the price cap is “X” for an average house and then that’s magically translated to price per KWh for electricity and for gas. Utter obscure voodoo. Why not make it straight forward?

                              Interestingly enough, we are a family of 3 on a three bed house. We spent 3,800KWh in electrics and 12,100kwh in gas last year. We do have a couple of electric heaters, but this winter they won’t be turned on very often I tell you that!

                                  DavecUK if it will go that low

                                  PID range 80 - 130 for all 3… so no go, unless I start fiddling around with the firmware (which may be encrypted in some way) 😁

                                  It would be interesting to see what the empirical (as opposed to Stefan-Boltzmann theoretical) law is at “coffee making” temperatures. Is the ~square valid through the 85 - 95 °C range, as far as you know.

                                    MediumRoastSteam Particularly when one is looking at four distinct components that make up the total… My electricity consumption is about average, but we have a large, old house and spend a lot more on heating, even though winter temperatures are kept low (18 - 20 °C). The impact of standing charges increases is small on my gas bill, but it can be quite considerable on my electricity cost (and so on).

                                    Political obfuscation. When there was the will to make things clearer (e.g. the obligation to quote APR/AER rates), people quickly learned what to compare… they’d do the same if provided unit rates and daily standing charges caps rather than a meaningless “average bill”.

                                      My electric usage is 2721kW per year, not count the EV usage. It’s not possible for me to lower it…I suppose I could buy a more energy efficient fridge freezer for £800 which would save 200kW per annum at best (£60) per year. If it retained it’s brand new efficiency, it would not save me money but pay for itself in 15 years, after which I would start saving money ..if it retains, as new efficiency.

                                      My gas usage for heating and HW is around 12000kW to be cold withe the heating on 3.5 hours per day Nov to mid March.

                                      I have a 5 / 6 bed house.

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                                        MediumRoastSteam we are a family of 3 on a three bed house. We spent 3,800KWh in electrics and 12,100kwh in gas last year.

                                        Our central heating is set at 21C all day. I never turn it off during the warmer months. I just let the thermostat do its job. It comes on at 7am, and it goes off at 22:30. When it comes on, I know autumn has started. Same for the hot water.

                                          DavecUK That’s very economical for the size of the property. Ours’ is also similar sized. Last year (2020-21) readings were 4508 for electricity and 21275 for gas. Since Aug 2021, we are averaging 360 kWh for electricity and the gas is all over the place.

                                              LMSC My property is well insulated and it’s usually cold in winter with that level of heat.

                                              Last year it was 9C inside and 13C outside, neighbors thought I was mad…but I needed to warm the house up 🤣 The house always lags any external temperature changes.

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