The decaf from Django at the start of the year was the best decaf I’ve had by a mile (Colombia Argelia Decaf) A lightly roasted fruity bean that was exceptionally good, I even had to double check the bag to make sure it was a decaf.
Disappointment
I gave up home roasting years ago. I used a 2 stage modded gene Cafe. I quickly realised that professional roasters could make a better job……of course that was then! I had been drinking Extract Sugar cane decaf and for me, it was superb. Then I ordered some and it had changed 360! They kept the same distinctive packaging but changed the country or origin and roast levels.
I do not want this to be a bash them thread but I see no harm in folks telling us of good or bad experiences in relation to tasting notes
The last few coffees I’ve had from Dog and Hat (Three Marks Coffee Ethiopia - Shakiso & FRUKT coffee Yoiner Mosquera) have been underwhelming compared to the tasting notes. It’s not that they’re badly roasted but I couldn’t taste what was on the bag.
It wouldn’t surprise me if roasters are using stale greens but I have no way of proving it.
Platypus The decaf from Django at the start of the year was the best decaf I’ve had by a mile (Colombia Argelia Decaf)
Indeed! I still have some of that coffee in the freezer! It’s a good decaf, but in my opinion it doesn’t match the non-decaf stuff.
MediumRoastSteam
To be fair, I do set the bar of expectation much lower for decaf but I couldn’t fault this one.
dfk41 I had been drinking Extract Sugar cane decaf and for me, it was superb. Then I ordered some and it had changed 360!
You put me onto the Sugarcane decaf a few years ago and it was incredible. Since they’ve changed it its nowhere near as good
It’s the process that’s chaned too. From sugarcane to washed. A real shame as it’s lost its magic
whinmoor85 It still surprises me how many roasters send beans out without an apparent batch code or roasted on date. The latest from Dark Woods for example, just has a best brfore dated 6 months ahead. The do state the actual day so it is easy to work out…….but, that is not the point
whinmoor85 It wouldn’t surprise me if roasters are using stale greens but I have no way of proving it.
That is a very interesting point…….
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The process for the extract decaf is still sugarcane process, they have just labelled it as water and ethyl acetate but they are the same process by different names. The process isn’t labelled as sugarcane because the ethyl acetate isn’t derived from 100% sugar cane but from fruit as well
whinmoor85 It wouldn’t surprise me if roasters are using stale greens but I have no way of proving it.
You can sometimes check on the website, for instance the frukt coffee was harvested december 2022 so it is older than I would have expected (not that age of greens is always an indicator of taste).
I do find these multi roaster subscriptions can sometimes be an excuse for roasters to offload coffee that isn’t selling well, it is not always the case and you can get great exclusive lots for a great price but I have seen some coffees appear that have been for sale for a few months already
Coffee Roaster. Home: Sage Dual Boiler, Niche Zero, Ode v2 (SSP), 1zpresso ZP6 Work: Eagle One Prima EXP, mahlkonig e80s, Mazzer Philos and lots more
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InfamousTuba I do find these multi roaster subscriptions can sometimes be an excuse for roasters to offload coffee that isn’t selling well, it is not always the case and you can get great exclusive lots for a great price but I have seen some coffees appear that have been for sale for a few months already
This is very true….and logical.
Companies who aggregate deals from different roasters on a monthly basis can be directly compared to those companies who send you a box of wine for a supposedly cheap price and then you get a wine selection each month, or in the old days, book clubs, music clubs etc.. etc..
Coffee is a commodity, it has a traded standardised price (unless direct from farm, which has it’s own issues). So a roaster needs to add on an amount of margin to make it worth their while. They can’t easily reduce that margin and are generally unwilling to do so. Remembering that speciality high quality roasters who are good, generally are not into bulk roasting and can sell everything they roast without problems. It’s like getting a good builder, you normally have to wait, they will not be available immediately!
There are some situations where roasters will discount and sell to the coffee amalgamators (who need to make margin on the beans as well):
- They have some old coffee that needs finishing
- Business is very slow and they need to shift stuff (there may be lots of reasons)
- They are not that good
- They are a bulk roaster, simply churning out omni roasts.
- They are new roasters/startups who see it as free advertising
- The coffee is only available as a special by this route, so they are making normal margin and you are paying more than it’s worth after the aggregators margin is added on. The old RRP false discount thing.
- You are getting a great deal, on excellent quality expensive coffee and a top quality roast. The roaster is taking massive hit and even with the aggregators margin added on, it’s a bargain.
How realistic does the last one sound?
DavecUK This chat is bringing out some very interesting points and furthers the realisation that perhaps as consumers or end users, then perhaps we are not getting the product or levels of service that we really deserve. How to take this forward though is another question.
I think the comparison of tasting notes to results in the cup is a fair one, providing you have given the bean a good go. I would be more tempted to keep this to brewed beans as opposed to espresso since it narrows the field down a little. Does anyone else have any thoughts on how we can progress this topic?
whinmoor85 the three marks lots are washed and need pushing quite hard. That said, they also got held up in customs, which may have contributed towards some degradation.
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dfk41 asked: “Does anyone else have any thoughts on how we can progress this topic?”
Beyond giving each other a heads-up when we find something good, not really…there are a few widespread issues:
Most coffee is roasted then despatched ASAP to fulfil orders and the customer’s expectation of receiving recently roasted product. Rather than, the coffee being roasted, rested for a couple of days & QC’d.
It would be interesting to know whether roasters QC their coffee after certain periods in the packaging in which it is despatched. I have received coffee in sealed packaging that actually has holes in it and is not airtight.
Roasters, from my discussions with them, don’t seem to be very adept at brewing. I have heard just about every excuse imaginable as to why their coffee doesn’t met expectation, such as:
Your burrs are blunt (how do they know this, it will take the rest of my life to wear out my hand grinder burrs!)
You can’t brew coffee by pour over as it is fraught with issues (how do they expect customers to brew coffee that is filter roasted?) The brew method & detailed recipe as to how they achieved the notes on the bag is absent.
Your grinder makes too many fines (how many do the roaster’s grinder make, how many should I have, how do I check/correct this, why are they particularly interested in fines rather than grind size?)
They sometimes blame water, but can’t tell you what properties to look for (A couple have, like Prodigal & Square Mile for example).
Filter roasts have, for the larger part, got darker compared to 6-7 years ago. Some roasters have stated this to me, but never been clear as to why. How can we taste the, sweet, delicate acidity of, say, pears against the overriding background of burnt wood/toast scrapings (I don’t mean that coffee that is fruity/bright is better, just that if the coffee is roasted more towards generic roast flavours, like Illy or a fairly good supermarket bean/Nespresso pod, how are these stated notes supposed to compete in the cup?
dfk41 I’ve never had a bad coffee from Dark Woods, so the lack of roast date has never bothered me.
Raja123 I’ll grind finer on the next cup but I’ve tried this coffee at different grind sizes and never got close to the tasting notes. It sweetens up a bit when the coffee cools but not loads.
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I have stopped giving feed back to roasters especially if the brews aren’t good as expected - taste, notes, ….
Some are straightaway apologetic and offer a refund or replacement, which I refuse. This will not progress beyond this in 95% of cases. One roaster, whom I regularly purchase beans from, insisted on refund as a principle, while I stood my ground. Eventually, we resolved it as the refund went to a charity. This is good.
Otherwise, they will offer standard excuses like water, storage, a lack of a good grinder and brewing guides.
One popular roaster, with whom I have had some good coffee, blamed the brew ratio calling 1:15 as too strong a ratio and it was hardly a surprise the brew wasn’t good. He recommended 55g/L to 60g/L. I advised the roaster it is nothing to do with the ratio as the coffee neither tasted good nor had any notes as described, 1:15 ratio is a standard practice in the brew world and they ought to have known better. The roaster also indicated 9% and 12% 400 Kruve sifting offer little value to brewers. This roaster doesn’t indicate roast degree and said none of his customers is interested in the roast degree or what their take on the coffee is.
IMO, evasive responses like these mean they not only lose their credibility a bit but also result in they letting their moral and QA standards slip.
Countless experiences like these taught me contacting roasters re-a bad batch offer little value to the end consumers like self. :-)
DavecUK You raise some fair points but Dog and Hat don’t market the international subscription as a money saver considering it’s more expensive than the standard sub.
@InfamousTuba Roasters off-loading coffees that haven’t sold makes sense. I’d be interested to know how many of the coffees provided do Dog and Hat actually cup? They’ve got orders to fulfil so are they actually going to send batches back if the coffee doesn’t taste as the bag states? I doubt it.
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Dog n Hat international subscription is competitively priced, IMO. It is a great deal for someone looking at international varieties. Based on my limited experience, it can be a hit and miss for a brewer like me as I am fuzzy with taste, roast and notes. I no longer buy from them as their coffee doesn’t suit my profile, but they are great if one were to consider exploring or looking for varieties.
It doesn’t diminish