Is that an eggbox? I gotta take a look at that dimmer mod thread.

Classic. Talk about upcycling. 😀

Thanks for that, Medium.

EDIT - Butter? Even better.

    Found the problem with Ikawa, at least for now. App=iPhone only. Android “coming soon”. Uh-huh. When it does, wake me up.

    CoffeePhilE I agree with everything you said about resting times: It’s subjective, it depends on the beans, the roast level and other variables. I didn’t mean to say ‘beans need 14 days resting time’ (that would just be silly). I mentioned it as an example/illustration of the small batch size limitation: How did I find out that I liked bean X 14 days off roast? Because I had enough of this coffee for two weeks. I started drinking it 7 days off roast, then continued every day and noticed it gets better (to my taste) closer to 14 days. If I only had 3-5 shots of it, I would finish drinking it at day 9.5 max (so it would have been difficult to find out I prefer it at 14 days). This is what I meant. :-)

    As for the Ikawa - it better well be considerably more polished for what it costs, lol. I have the Niche and am very happy with it, but I think I would have to be out of my mind to spend £970 on a 50g batch roaster however polished it may be (and yet, it got two 5* reviews. So this is only my opinion, and I don’t have any pretence that anyone else should agree).

        Doram

        I think the batch size thing is a bit of a double-edged sword, either way. The Ikawa does seem to be a very different creature from popcorn poppers,though there is the visual similarity of the vertical design.But then, if you’re going to use the fluid bed method, it kinda has to be vertical. One review I watched (the hour long one) did point out it’s very solid, and surprisingly heavy. Their website points out it’s a single piece (uni-body) aluminium frame weighing some 5Kg, and the top is precision-cut glass. In other words, pretty substantial. It’s also a ‘Home’ version of the Professional versions used in industry (such as for grading) and, for that matter, extensively in competition.

        There is, of course, a relationship between batch size and roast time. The Ikawas are designed specifically for small batches, like sampling. I mean, they are sample roasters, after all. One use case is where commercial buyers are sent, well, ‘samples’, often 100g, prior to (the seller hopes) placing bulk orders. Then, you really need small batch sizes, which is why the Pro version gained a separate 50g version because it allowed two roastings from that 100g rather than just one, so maybe two profiles, or one for filter and another for espresso. Also, they’re fast.

        My point is that they’re proper commercial machines, built for a very specific job, sample roating. Also for coffee grading, and as a development roaster. The Home version is a simplified version of the 100g Pro version.

        And, as they point out, they are designed for back-to-back roasts. Given fast roasts (typically 6-10 minutes), I could always do two or three back-to-back 100g roasts if I need, say, 300g, rather thn a single 250-300g roast in the Gene or Behmor.

        I think my fairly specific circumstances might well suit that better than the Gene/Behmor approach. This is what I meant when I said I started out thinking Gene/Behmor, but the more I thought about it, the more the smaller batch seems to fit my needs well. Either way, there’s advantages and disadvantages. Doing two or three back-to-back roasts certainly has a downside, but then the bigger home roasters aren’t ideally suited to doing multiple, small roasts, perhaps to test the impact on taste of varied roast profiles. It very much depends on how they’ll be used.

        As for £970, I agree they’re expensive BUT …. if it does the job well, I don’t care. I’d rather have it cost that and be right for me, than £500 and not be right. For instance, given my disability, the method of getting beans in, and out, is a very marked advantage over the Gene, Behmor or evem Sandbox. I know I won’t struggle getting the cage in (or worse, out, when it’s very hot).

        But then, the iOS only thing, at the moment, is an issue. I did find a vague reference to the “new” Home app wasn’t available yet, but it implied the existing Android version of the Pro app was, and would work. I think I need to talk to Ikawa about that.

        If, and I stress if the price is justified, then it’s not a concern. After all, some things are expensive, but justify it, like Rolls Royce, Patek Philippe watches, the Dorchester hotel, BMW (though that one might be controversial) or Porsche. If it’s a ludicrously over-priced popcorn popper then that’s different, but it isn’t how it looks to me.

            CoffeePhilE - if you stick an Apple logo on the Ikawa, it fits quite nicely. Maybe one reason they haven’t bothered with Android. Remember, the ikawa has been out for a while. If they haven’t written an app for it yet - most likely they won’t.

              I’ve been doing more research and thinking, too. I am also wary of being locked into an app which is what happens with the Sandbox and the Ikawa. I suspect this is an age thing, similar to how we all felt when we could no longer service are own cars as they needed to be plugged into the manufacturers computer. It’s the direction the world is moving in and you we have the choice to embrace, reluctantly join in for shout at the clouds. Whichever we choose - the direction of travel is already set.

              Worth noting that the current version of Ikawa home does 100g batches (not 50g - that was the previous version) and that the roast time is only 6 to 10 minutes. So if you want to roast 300g you could be finished in half an hour. And it seems the neatest, cleanest and least hassle so this may still be quicker than some of the options that can do larger single batches.

              I’ve ruled out the Behmor, it’s only advantage is price but it seems pretty flawed and poorly thought out - demands external cooling, but more importantly the control panel is an exercise in frustration. That would drive me up the wall. I’ve ruled out the Gene for similar reasons of hassle and requiring modding to get the best out of it.

              Price difference between the Sandbox (with cooler) and Ikawa is not that huge really - £970 vs £695. If the Ikawa offers similar results then the extra cost is worth the convenience to me - smaller, neater, all-in one with no external cooling and no chaff flying around the room etc.

              Still not completely made up my mind but Ikawa is looking like the favourite. Just wish someone who I trusted had thoroughly reviewed it - Dave. :-)

              BTW - Niche and Ikawa recently teamed up to do a giveaway, that gave me some confidence in the quality of the Ikawa. I suspect that after putting so much thought and design into bringing the Niche to market, Mr Niche would be reluctant to sully his brand reputation by partnering with Ikawa if it was simply a posh popcorn maker.

              CoffeePhilE It seems you know what you want and are aware of the limitations. That’s great, and I hope you will get something you will use and enjoy. You could also share your thoughts here which can help others and I am sure will be an interesting read.

              As for the app issue, I can’t imagine a serious company offering a premium product in 2021 that relies on a phone but doesn’t support Android. So hopefully they do support it, or will do soon. If they don’t, you could also get a cheapo (used?) iPhone for the purpose of controlling the roaster. In the grand scheme of things, if everything else is perfect for you, this could be a small niggle.

              As for a justified price - I can’t agree more (though ‘justified’ is very subjective).

                LMSC The part about saying how it’s useful for roasting all sorts of things, then later shows a photo of popcorn is a bit worrying…Now it has me thinking, could I load popcorn into my roaster…what would happen??

                Contact me

                    The following is my interpretation of what I think is going on with Ikawa. I have to say, the information on their website is somewhat obscure, so the following is a mix of what they say, what I infer from it, and a bit of third-party info picked up elsewhere, like posts on Reddit.

                    • First Ikawa released in 2012. It was a 50g sample roaster, aimed very directly at coffee professionals. And priced accordingly.
                    • More than a few coffee professionals pointed out that while 50g suited some purposes, it just wasn’t sufficient for other purposes, like a 5-bowl cupping. As a result, the 100g version was born.
                    • I think I have that the right way round, 50g first then 100g. But am not 100% sure.
                    • The 100g bit, as in Pro100, seems to refer to roasted weight. I assume the 50g does too. Somewhere in the specs, and on the two websites (one for Pro, one for much newer Home Roaster), there is a reference to 120g weight of green beans, to give 100g roasted. I assume, therefore, that it is an ‘about’ figure.
                    • The Pro series are much more expensive, The websites off a “Get a Quote” button, not a price, on the Pro. Reddit suggests about $4000 (presumably therefore around £4000) for the Pro100. I don’t know about Pro50.
                    • The “Home” designation refers to a model targeted much more at home users than coffee pro’s. Build quality is pretty much the same, but there are hardware omissions in the Home too, and indeed, App limitations. It seems, in part, to omit things they feel (probably wrongly) Home users like us lot won’t want, but my strong suspicion is that a bigger motivation is to castrate the Home to the point where coffee pro’s that might otherwisebuy the $4000 version settle for the “home” instead. That’s reinforced by the explicit statement that commercial use of the Home model invalidates the warranty. The Home is also physically slightly different, so it isn’t just an app change.
                    • The Pro versions have much more control, for instance over both inlet and exhaust vent air temps, and apparently, either by inference or sensor (not sure which) bean mass temp. The idea is to test/develop rost profiles on the Ikawa that can then be transferred to commercial roasters that do have bean mass temp probes.
                    • Moreover, the App for Home (a least v2) locks down control, too. You can certainly download profiles for Ikawa beans, and there are then 30 ways to tweak those. This appears to consist of 5 settings for before 1c, 3 for post 1c “development” times, and options for expresso and filter. Presumably, they therefore mean 15 variations for espresso, and 15 for filter.
                    • There is an “Advanced Editor” option in the app, that does give direct edit control over multiple spots on the temp curve. It appears you can set what temp you want and the Ikawa deals with how to achieve that. This, again, appears to be targetting the testing of profiles for commercial roasters because the mindset seems to be that the Ikawa is for simulating those big roasters, and so what matters isn’t how it’s done as the mechanics will be different, but rather, what happens to the actual beans. And if used in that way, it makes sense.
                    • HOWEVER …. on the “Home” roasters, certainly it seems on the V2 of the App, unlocking that direct curve editing option is a £30/month subscription option. And that makes 100% sense if it is aimed at coffee professionals, to whom such a sub would be both a tax write-off and a business expense. However, as an actual “Home” but enthusiast user, at who apparently the “Home” Ikawa is aimed, I have to say it p155es me off, right royally.
                    • What Ikawa are apparently saying is they expect home users to buy a machine at nearly £1000 to roast my damn beans at home, then pay £360/$360 (whichever) a year to be able to do the job how I want it done rather than by ‘presets’. Why? To protect their Pro series market.
                    • My question to Ikawa would be if they understand what enthusiasts are about? I say and hope they don’t. The only other interpretation is that they do understand, but made that numbskull decision anyway, which if true, shows utter contempt for us enthusiasts.
                    • MediumRoastSteam’s comment a few posts ago about sticking an Apple logo on it seems very apt. Yeah, they might get some home users that are well off enough to pose with a £1000 Home coffee roaster they don’t know (and don’t want to know) how to drive, but to offer enthusiasts light, medium-light, medium, medium dark and dark options for pre-1c, and to charge a fortune to direct edit the curve, is offensive.

                    What do I draw from all this? Firstly, the £1000 price tag doesn’t bother me in the least, as I said before, provided the device does what I need, provided it works for me. But not only a subscription, but a £30/month one, to be able to use it properly …. that winds me right the hell up, as is probably coming across pretty clearly by now.

                    Ikawa’s publicly available information is very slick, very ‘glossy’, but very poorly presented. It is confusing about what you get, and even now after reading BOTH websites several times, I’m still not sure about some of the above, which is why I put that strong caveat in right at the get-go. My personal conclusion on the website is that it is a textbook example of presentation over content. It reeks of being developed by someone that knows the answers to the kinds of questions those reading it will be seeking, and doesn’t pay much attention to whether those that don’t know can work it out. It is an exercise in frustration trying to find out, with way to much glitzy photography, far too much scrolling, and a marked absence of hard info, with what there is being scattered all over. It’s like a treasure hunt, trying to piece it all together. I now feel a bit like a cross between a bloodhound and Miss Marple, with a portion of village idiot thrown in for good measure because I’m still not 100% sure of much of the above. On the other hand, if obfuscation was the objective, it’s a masterclass.

                    Anyone seen my headache tablets?

                    Oh, and guess what my current feeling is about buying one? 🤣

                    Now, that Gene Cafe …. I think I need one Nomex glove, one good oven mitt. I have the latter already. 😀

                    Also, that’ll cheer up my bank manager.

                    PS. Sorry about the rant, guys and gals. But I feel better for unloading that.

                      DavecUK Now it has me thinking, could I load popcorn into my roaster…what would happen??

                      Expertly popped corn?

                        CoffeePhilE I can tell you 100% that you categorically do not require any type of heat proof glove to handle the Gene Cafe if used as intended. Even if you decide to do an emergency stop - i.e.: abort cool down - you don’t need it.

                        With the Sandbox, you categorically do need a heat proof glove. There’s no way around it.

                            I found that bit about the app premium subscription earlier and it dampened my enthusiasm too. It appears that this has been added recently and previous owners of the older 50g home version get grandfathered rights to the “advanced” functionality in the new app. I wonder how much protecting their income on “pro” sales will impact sales of the home version. I fear they may have shot themselves in the foot.

                              MediumRoastSteam

                              Thanks.

                              What I had in mind with that was essentially faster cooling. One of the criticisms I’ve seen was slow cooling, and that as a result, you kinda have to pre-empt where you want to be and stop a bit before you get there. The Sandbox, for example, has that external (optional) cooler that seems to cool fast, minimising overshooting if you wait to the level you want before you hit stop. But that seems to imply both beans and cage will be hot if you remove the cage before cooling finishes. I shjould have been clearer in what I meant.

                                Gagaryn I wonder how much protecting their income on “pro” sales will impact sales of the home version. I fear they may have shot themselves in the foot.

                                I suspect it depends on whether their market is the “Apple” demographic, or the enthusiast demographic. For the former, maybe not much. For the latter, it kills it stone dead, IMHO.

                                    CoffeePhilE

                                    It’s frustrating. The plus side of devices being app controlled is the ease of adding functionality and new features over time. The downside is that is easy for manufacturers to lock users out of functionality that the hardware is capable of. The home version is clearly being marketed with a focus on ease rather than flexibility. I’m now worried that Sandbox has or will have the same limitations.

                                      What really concerns me is the notion of retrospective changes, whether I like it or not. I mean, if the entire control interface is via app, and that app relies on their (profile) database in the back end, they can withdraw the app’s access any time they like, including if, for example, you don’t upgrade the app to their latest ‘supported’ version. And that app could remove facilities that include the reason I bought that hardware in the first place.

                                      I think you’re right when you said earlier it’s an age thing. That, and an experience thing. I feel rather like ‘been there, done that, got the battle scars’, not least with MS Windows, though the most overt example was Adobe going subscription-only for most of their product range … like Photoshop and Premiere.

                                      I have no reason to expect that they will do this sort of thing, but that experience tells me that most companies tend to do what suits them, not what they feel is fair to users. What bothers me Is that they can do it, at all. It boils down to “Do I trust them?” No. How can I? I don’t know them.

                                      What if, for instance, they decide in a year or two that even using the roaster at all is suddenly a subscription service?

                                      In the past, with computer hardware, yeah you still had to rely on drivers but I was cautious enough to always download copies of drivers I was using, so in the event I had to re-install, I didn’t even have to rely on still being downloadable, or even the company still existing. I might never get new, updated or even bug-fixed software or drivers, but at least they couldn’t remove the functionality the hardware functionality it had when I bought it. If it would do a job when I bought it, it could be guaranteed to continue doing it until the hardware itself died.

                                      But not with this model. The manufacturers can not only not improve stuff, they can even lock you out of it, if they so choose, or hold you to ransom. Which is why I switched away from Adobe stuff to completely different software, at considerable inconvenience, when they did that, after about 20 years of usage, rather than pay to ‘upgrade’ to a subscription-only system.

                                      CoffeePhilE - ps: when I said they could stick an Apple sticker on it and it would fit the range nice, I didn’t mean to be negative. I’m an Apple fan, and I do think they finish their products well, design them well and, most importantly, they do think quite a bit about usability. Of course, they also do charge accordingly, and it doesn’t necessarily mean what their product do is better than other products.

                                      To my mind, even though I never seen an Ikawa roaster, it does look very “Apple-like” and it does feel, to me, they seem to aim at that sort of segment of consumers, those who want a nice, well made and sleek product.

                                        Oh, I agree. I wasn’t intending to diss Apple. Well, tweak them a smidge, maybe. ;)

                                        But no, I don’t have a problem with Apple. I do think they have a different …. approach, however.

                                        Firstly, as a company, they do things their way. Don’t like it, don’t buy Apple. That isn’t necessariy a bad thing and what they aren’t is “me too”. They are, however, as hard-nosed as anybody, business-wise.

                                        But what I really meant was they tend to put the emphasis on design and style, and on usability, but typically, at a price. If you’re looking for a budget brand, look elsewhere. As for the usability thing, it is something, again, of a double-edged sword (IMHO). Interface design is often very good from one perspective, that being ease of use, but the double-edge is that it can be very limiting. You pretty much have to go with the flow,and do things the Apple way. Personally, I usually don’t. I want to set things up the way I want them set up. My …. ethos, my philosophy if you like, of computing, jars a bit with the Apple mindset. It doesn’t suit me but that doesn’t mean I think it’s ‘wrong’ or that it isn’t perfectly valid for others to love it. I am certainly pro-choice, in that regard.

                                        For a very long time, I was very much a Windows enthusiast. That started rubbing off when MS started (or to be fair, probably a bit after they first started) trying to tell users to do things the MS way. The deal-breaker of my trust in MS was when they started forcing auto-updates on Windows users, one of which was the infamous Windows 8 Start Menu debacle. That mindset continues with the Win 11 launch.

                                        So, for the most part, I’ve migrated much of what I do to Linux. The upside is I get to decide how I want to do things to a far, FAR greater degree, but the downside is, well, it has …. ummm, a ‘learning curve’. To say the least.

                                        Note - when I say I’m not anti-Apple, how many people do you know that aren’t on a select list of Apple employees, and yet have been invited into their (code-locked) prototype rooms? You now know one more. Yup, I went out to San Jose and had the guided tour, behind the locked doors that most Apple employees don’t even get inside. Was it interesting? Oh, hell, yeah. They had ….. lots of stuff I promised not to tell anybody about. And I’m not going to. :D

                                        12 days later

                                        I’d buy the new Behmor 2020 again for £250 like a shot. I had mine for almost a year now, and yes - it has some (minor) drawbacks, but a pair of leather gloves, some easily rigged up external cooling ( or just passing the beans between 2 colanders) will do the trick. My average roast loss is 15%, some lighter roasts of mine at 13%, some quite dark ones around 18%. 300gr roasts are always good and better, yielding about 250gr. Occasionally I’m doing 400gr. which with less chaffy beans are also producing good results. I keep my roast logbook, so learned to anticipate 1st. crack and reduce heat just prior. The crack is easy to hear, bean colour reasonably visible through the glass, the smell, aroma development by quickly opening/closing the door. If you need or want a computer program to run the roast for you this would need some modding, and even then probably fall short of your need. The temperature given is not compatible with bean probes on other machines.

                                        For me though, with its hands on approach, it’s a great machine. I’ve done just over 30kg with it, and enjoy my 1 to 2 fortnightly roasting sessions in my garden cabin a lot. It’s a great way to have a range of fresh quality beans available, both to enjoy for yourself, family and friends, and to learn much more about origins and processes then I ever have before.

                                        Photo below shows small samples of my 2 last roasts. A Mexican Maragogype and a Brazilian Bom Jesus. Spot the elephant 😊