Behmor Roaster

Doram

I think the batch size thing is a bit of a double-edged sword, either way. The Ikawa does seem to be a very different creature from popcorn poppers,though there is the visual similarity of the vertical design.But then, if you’re going to use the fluid bed method, it kinda has to be vertical. One review I watched (the hour long one) did point out it’s very solid, and surprisingly heavy. Their website points out it’s a single piece (uni-body) aluminium frame weighing some 5Kg, and the top is precision-cut glass. In other words, pretty substantial. It’s also a ‘Home’ version of the Professional versions used in industry (such as for grading) and, for that matter, extensively in competition.

There is, of course, a relationship between batch size and roast time. The Ikawas are designed specifically for small batches, like sampling. I mean, they are sample roasters, after all. One use case is where commercial buyers are sent, well, ‘samples’, often 100g, prior to (the seller hopes) placing bulk orders. Then, you really need small batch sizes, which is why the Pro version gained a separate 50g version because it allowed two roastings from that 100g rather than just one, so maybe two profiles, or one for filter and another for espresso. Also, they’re fast.

My point is that they’re proper commercial machines, built for a very specific job, sample roating. Also for coffee grading, and as a development roaster. The Home version is a simplified version of the 100g Pro version.

And, as they point out, they are designed for back-to-back roasts. Given fast roasts (typically 6-10 minutes), I could always do two or three back-to-back 100g roasts if I need, say, 300g, rather thn a single 250-300g roast in the Gene or Behmor.

I think my fairly specific circumstances might well suit that better than the Gene/Behmor approach. This is what I meant when I said I started out thinking Gene/Behmor, but the more I thought about it, the more the smaller batch seems to fit my needs well. Either way, there’s advantages and disadvantages. Doing two or three back-to-back roasts certainly has a downside, but then the bigger home roasters aren’t ideally suited to doing multiple, small roasts, perhaps to test the impact on taste of varied roast profiles. It very much depends on how they’ll be used.

As for £970, I agree they’re expensive BUT …. if it does the job well, I don’t care. I’d rather have it cost that and be right for me, than £500 and not be right. For instance, given my disability, the method of getting beans in, and out, is a very marked advantage over the Gene, Behmor or evem Sandbox. I know I won’t struggle getting the cage in (or worse, out, when it’s very hot).

But then, the iOS only thing, at the moment, is an issue. I did find a vague reference to the “new” Home app wasn’t available yet, but it implied the existing Android version of the Pro app was, and would work. I think I need to talk to Ikawa about that.

If, and I stress if the price is justified, then it’s not a concern. After all, some things are expensive, but justify it, like Rolls Royce, Patek Philippe watches, the Dorchester hotel, BMW (though that one might be controversial) or Porsche. If it’s a ludicrously over-priced popcorn popper then that’s different, but it isn’t how it looks to me.

CoffeePhilE - Kelly’s Ice Cream.

CoffeePhilE - if you stick an Apple logo on the Ikawa, it fits quite nicely. Maybe one reason they haven’t bothered with Android. Remember, the ikawa has been out for a while. If they haven’t written an app for it yet - most likely they won’t.

LMSC The part about saying how it’s useful for roasting all sorts of things, then later shows a photo of popcorn is a bit worrying…Now it has me thinking, could I load popcorn into my roaster…what would happen??

DavecUK Now it has me thinking, could I load popcorn into my roaster…what would happen??

Expertly popped corn?

CoffeePhilE I can tell you 100% that you categorically do not require any type of heat proof glove to handle the Gene Cafe if used as intended. Even if you decide to do an emergency stop - i.e.: abort cool down - you don’t need it.

With the Sandbox, you categorically do need a heat proof glove. There’s no way around it.

Gagaryn I wonder how much protecting their income on “pro” sales will impact sales of the home version. I fear they may have shot themselves in the foot.

I suspect it depends on whether their market is the “Apple” demographic, or the enthusiast demographic. For the former, maybe not much. For the latter, it kills it stone dead, IMHO.

What really concerns me is the notion of retrospective changes, whether I like it or not. I mean, if the entire control interface is via app, and that app relies on their (profile) database in the back end, they can withdraw the app’s access any time they like, including if, for example, you don’t upgrade the app to their latest ‘supported’ version. And that app could remove facilities that include the reason I bought that hardware in the first place.

I think you’re right when you said earlier it’s an age thing. That, and an experience thing. I feel rather like ‘been there, done that, got the battle scars’, not least with MS Windows, though the most overt example was Adobe going subscription-only for most of their product range … like Photoshop and Premiere.

I have no reason to expect that they will do this sort of thing, but that experience tells me that most companies tend to do what suits them, not what they feel is fair to users. What bothers me Is that they can do it, at all. It boils down to “Do I trust them?” No. How can I? I don’t know them.

What if, for instance, they decide in a year or two that even using the roaster at all is suddenly a subscription service?

In the past, with computer hardware, yeah you still had to rely on drivers but I was cautious enough to always download copies of drivers I was using, so in the event I had to re-install, I didn’t even have to rely on still being downloadable, or even the company still existing. I might never get new, updated or even bug-fixed software or drivers, but at least they couldn’t remove the functionality the hardware functionality it had when I bought it. If it would do a job when I bought it, it could be guaranteed to continue doing it until the hardware itself died.

But not with this model. The manufacturers can not only not improve stuff, they can even lock you out of it, if they so choose, or hold you to ransom. Which is why I switched away from Adobe stuff to completely different software, at considerable inconvenience, when they did that, after about 20 years of usage, rather than pay to ‘upgrade’ to a subscription-only system.

CoffeePhilE - ps: when I said they could stick an Apple sticker on it and it would fit the range nice, I didn’t mean to be negative. I’m an Apple fan, and I do think they finish their products well, design them well and, most importantly, they do think quite a bit about usability. Of course, they also do charge accordingly, and it doesn’t necessarily mean what their product do is better than other products.

To my mind, even though I never seen an Ikawa roaster, it does look very “Apple-like” and it does feel, to me, they seem to aim at that sort of segment of consumers, those who want a nice, well made and sleek product.

Oh, I agree. I wasn’t intending to diss Apple. Well, tweak them a smidge, maybe. ;)

But no, I don’t have a problem with Apple. I do think they have a different …. approach, however.

Firstly, as a company, they do things their way. Don’t like it, don’t buy Apple. That isn’t necessariy a bad thing and what they aren’t is “me too”. They are, however, as hard-nosed as anybody, business-wise.

But what I really meant was they tend to put the emphasis on design and style, and on usability, but typically, at a price. If you’re looking for a budget brand, look elsewhere. As for the usability thing, it is something, again, of a double-edged sword (IMHO). Interface design is often very good from one perspective, that being ease of use, but the double-edge is that it can be very limiting. You pretty much have to go with the flow,and do things the Apple way. Personally, I usually don’t. I want to set things up the way I want them set up. My …. ethos, my philosophy if you like, of computing, jars a bit with the Apple mindset. It doesn’t suit me but that doesn’t mean I think it’s ‘wrong’ or that it isn’t perfectly valid for others to love it. I am certainly pro-choice, in that regard.

For a very long time, I was very much a Windows enthusiast. That started rubbing off when MS started (or to be fair, probably a bit after they first started) trying to tell users to do things the MS way. The deal-breaker of my trust in MS was when they started forcing auto-updates on Windows users, one of which was the infamous Windows 8 Start Menu debacle. That mindset continues with the Win 11 launch.

So, for the most part, I’ve migrated much of what I do to Linux. The upside is I get to decide how I want to do things to a far, FAR greater degree, but the downside is, well, it has …. ummm, a ‘learning curve’. To say the least.

Note - when I say I’m not anti-Apple, how many people do you know that aren’t on a select list of Apple employees, and yet have been invited into their (code-locked) prototype rooms? You now know one more. Yup, I went out to San Jose and had the guided tour, behind the locked doors that most Apple employees don’t even get inside. Was it interesting? Oh, hell, yeah. They had ….. lots of stuff I promised not to tell anybody about. And I’m not going to. :D

I’d buy the new Behmor 2020 again for £250 like a shot. I had mine for almost a year now, and yes - it has some (minor) drawbacks, but a pair of leather gloves, some easily rigged up external cooling ( or just passing the beans between 2 colanders) will do the trick. My average roast loss is 15%, some lighter roasts of mine at 13%, some quite dark ones around 18%. 300gr roasts are always good and better, yielding about 250gr. Occasionally I’m doing 400gr. which with less chaffy beans are also producing good results. I keep my roast logbook, so learned to anticipate 1st. crack and reduce heat just prior. The crack is easy to hear, bean colour reasonably visible through the glass, the smell, aroma development by quickly opening/closing the door. If you need or want a computer program to run the roast for you this would need some modding, and even then probably fall short of your need. The temperature given is not compatible with bean probes on other machines.

For me though, with its hands on approach, it’s a great machine. I’ve done just over 30kg with it, and enjoy my 1 to 2 fortnightly roasting sessions in my garden cabin a lot. It’s a great way to have a range of fresh quality beans available, both to enjoy for yourself, family and friends, and to learn much more about origins and processes then I ever have before.

Photo below shows small samples of my 2 last roasts. A Mexican Maragogype and a Brazilian Bom Jesus. Spot the elephant 😊

@Gagaryn

Price difference between the Sandbox (with cooler) and Ikawa is not that huge really - £970 vs £695. If the Ikawa offers similar results then the extra cost is worth the convenience to me - smaller, neater, all-in one with no external cooling and no chaff flying around the room etc.

I don’t think you get chaff flying around the room with the Sandbox. The Ikawa is an air roaster and without saying one will be better than the other the results will be different.

@CoffeePhilE

The Pro versions have much more control, for instance over both inlet and exhaust vent air temps, and apparently, either by inference or sensor (not sure which) bean mass temp. The idea is to test/develop rost profiles on the Ikawa that can then be transferred to commercial roasters that do have bean mass temp probes.

You can’t transfer profiles from the Ikawa or any other air roaster to a larger drum roaster. It might be somewhat possible to transfer to a larger batch air roaster but I think even that would be unlikely to be an exact transfer as batch size, temp control and airflow will mean you need to make changes. These are ‘sample’ roasters for cupping. Excellent for roasters and importers to assess green beans and very useful in that they are portable so can be taken to farms to sample coffee. Not really good for exploring what flavours you can get when you roast at a larger scale (though you’d at least get an idea) but good for cupping, assessing defects and coming up with some flavour notes.

I think when you buy these air roasters you’re paying mostly for the software, and in the case of professional portable options the use case for importers and roasters make it valuable.

CoffeePhilE Again, due to circumstances, getting more roasts done in a short period of time accelerates the learning curve. For me, doing two or three a week is a good thing, compared to doing two or three a month, for larger batches. I agree that usually those small batches would be a negative, but for me, I think they’re actually a positive. Maybe I need to explain why. Let me think about that a bit.

I’m not sure it will accelerate the learning curve the way you think it will. You will learn how not to get terrible results quickly but you could very easily just end up in confusion especially when you’re just learning if you try to do things more complex to alter flavour notes. When you’ve been roasting a bit maybe four small batches would be good and then you can run a final one that should hopefully be the one you use over and over again. The problem is coffee will change and it can be quite a substantial and unpredictable change over a period of time, and not even necessarily linear i.e. flavours evolve over time and don’t just go from not there (needs resting) - there (rested) - losing notes on the way to going stale. I’ve noticed significant changes in roasts from week 1 all the way to week 6-8 before the changes become predictable (i.e tailing off on the way to going stale) with some really being at their very best right up to the end of that window. If you’re making 100g batches you’re not going to taste them for 6 weeks…..though I guess you could make the argument that you would only be interested in roasting coffee in such a way that it’s ready to drink within a week even if that means it’s not the best you could get out of it. Of course, you can still do repeatable small batches and let some rest for long periods. My point is you aren’t necessarily going to be learning faster doing 3 or 4 roasts a week compared to 1 a week once you get past the initial few batches and can get something approximating a decent roast, which should happen fairly quickly if you use good coffee and don’t make the mistake of buying something cheap to learn with.

MediumRoastSteam Be very interested to hear how it goes….did you get it on the £250 deal?