RobertRo101 - I believe that, in order for he machine to be “brew stable”, the pressure has to oscillate quite a bit in order to not overheat. If the top half of the manometer remains at, e.g. 1bar pressure constantly when idling, then it’s in HX mode. If it keeps fluctuating to lower pressures, dumps water now and again (in order to keep the HX cooler), then it’s in brew priority mode.
Lelit MaraX stuck in HX mode
In both modes mine remains around 0.5bars (0.4-0.6). I will monitor in both modes for pressure changes and for the dumps of water, thanks.
If you’re in HX mode, each temperature setting for the PID should show different a different steam pressure in the manometer. I believe 0 should be about 1 bar, 1 should be 1.25 bar, and 2 should be 1.5 bar - according to some technical manual I found in a review.
And these should sit pretty stable in HX mode.
Well, in that case, I am never in HX mode:))
RobertRo101 flow is around 47g/10s without the portafilter in place, the Mara V2 also has a green pump.
But you were extracting through coffee I think? Obviously with an empty group the temperatures shown on the group head thermometer will be higher when you run the pump.
The flow rate is without the portafilter in place. But the video I made to show the temperature was during a normal extraction.
RobertRo101 I thought so, it’s important to be crystal clear when dealing with people/companies who’s native language is not English.
Yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding. Btw in position 2 for the temperature setting, the pressure gauge is at 0.6 bar
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So..
What are the top manometer readings for:
Side switch, position HX mode:
Temp. Switch Position left, position centre and position right?
Expected: needle to move to set positions and stay there.
Side switch, position Brew mode:
Temp switch Position left, position centre and position right?
Expected: needle to fluctuate around set positions.
Watch for 10 minutes each and report back.
The reason I ask is that, if there are differences in behaviour, then at least something is happening (rather than being stuck). Currently I’m more confused than certain.
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If you switched to PID level 2 and had it sit there for 15+ minutes and it’s now showing 0.6 bars I’d assume your machine is in brew priority mode.
I agree with @MediumRoastSteam to take readings of each of those settings and let us know. That way it’ll be clearer.
Ok guys, thank you so much for the help, it certainly is a lot more thank Lelit’s:)
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Hi guys, I think I have found the problem or at least the fix but I can’t explain why and how is this possible.
First, let me clear up some things, the machine has been on for around 2 hours and the last extraction was about 40 minutes ago. Coffee priority mode active (at least the switch is in 1 position), temperature setting on 0. I go and look on the thermometer and I see, as usual for the past days, 93-93.5 degrees BUT I don’t know what got in my head and I inserted the portafilter in the group, not tight, just enough so it wouldn’t fall, and I start to see the reading on the thermometer drop to 91.5 (+- a few tenths), which was the normal temperature reading I had in the first weeks of use (but I did not let the portafilter locked in in the first weeks, or at least not always) and I was curious what would happen if I make a coffee. And so I did, and to my surprise, the readings were the same as when I first got the machine, from 91.5 an increase to around 94 and then a decrease to 93-93.5, and the most important thing, it was very stable, completely opposite to what has happened in recent days, I couldn’t believe it:)
I could also taste the difference, less bitterness, and harshness, but it may have just been placebo.
What would the reason for all of this be? Does it have anything to do with the fact that with the lever in the middle position or even higher (before touching the button that starts the pump) there isn’t any water coming out as I saw at other people?
I can make a video of what I am trying to say here, speed it up and post if it helps.
RobertRo101 What would the reason for all of this be? Does it have anything to do with the fact that with the lever in the middle position or even higher (before touching the button that starts the pump) there isn’t any water coming out as I saw at other people?
I honestly would like to beat the person who started this whole middle position thing with a stick. It certainly would upset things if a valve was open….in an HX system depending on the temperature it can cause small voids, or allow water to dribble out, all of which affect the HX loop.
On many machines it can cause problems, such as thermpsyphon stalls on certain types of brew boilers, Crem One 2B LFPP problems with pump noise…etc..
When making a coffee with any E61 machine I move smoothly from fully down to the fully up/horizontal position and don’t wait in the twilight zone..
MaraX really is a walk up and shoot machine, make all your coffees and then leave it for 15 or 20 minutes to re stabilise before making more. Will the software always get it perfect…possibly not, but it’s much closer than most HX machines. If steaming, it’s very important to try and catch it as it begins boosting and almost reaches its peak. I believe on even current software versions…the boost can be continued, by very briefly running the pump. It is a machine you need to adapt to using…or just stick it in HX mode if you want a normal HX.
Yeah, I don’t use the middle position, just straight up and down, not too slow and not sudden and fast, I just thought that seeing everybody’s machine able to do that, my Mara had some kind of problem regarding this.
Still, how could it be possible that leveling the portafilter locked in for 2-3 minutes change the reading on the thermometer to normal and also provide much more consistency in temperature when brewing, and in the right temperature range? Not like these last days where the extraction started from 93.5 and got up to 95.5 and then down to 92, or other crazy temp curves.
RobertRo101 If I’m reading it right, you normally didn’t have the portafilter locked in, but only locked it in before making a coffee. This time when it worked OK, you had left the portafilter locked in?
If this is the case, yes, it could well make a difference…
Let me try and explain a bit better. In the first weeks since I got the machine, I did not always leave the portafilter locked in, most of the time I didn’t, but the temperature was always constant and in the “right” range of 91.5-92. But since last week or so, something happened the machine started going crazy (and driving me crazy as well:) ) and I presumed that it stuck itself in HX mode (I am yet to do the test @MediumRoastSteam recommend above that I do), but this morning I left the portafilter locked in and immediately, 2-3 minutes, saw the temperature drop from 93.5-94 reading in idle to 91.5-91.8 (which is the temp I had before all of this craziness) and out of curiosity I made a coffee and the temperature during the extraction was very constant and in the normal range, exactly like it was before.
But I can not wrap my head around what could possibly change the whole system in idle and during the extraction by just simply leaving the portafilter locked for 2-3 minutes.
Just did another test. I let the machine cool off and then started it again, with the portafilter locked in I went a few minutes ago to check on it, after around 50-60 minutes of warmup, the thermometer read 92.3 in idle and as soon as I removed the portafilter, the temperature started increasing to 93.8. Manometer steam pressure was again around 0.5 bar.
Could it be that the portafilter actually catches the surplus of high temperature that I have been seeing in the past week? And if so, what could cause such an increase and what could fix it?
RobertRo101 Just did another test. I let the machine cool off and then started it again, with the portafilter locked in I went a few minutes ago to check on it, after around 50-60 minutes of warmup, the thermometer read 92.3 in idle and as soon as I removed the portafilter, the temperature started increasing to 93.8. Manometer steam pressure was again around 0.5 bar.
Could it be that the portafilter actually catches the surplus of high temperature that I have been seeing in the past week? And if so, what could cause such an increase and what could fix it?
I am not a physicist, just an owner like you, so take what I say with a grain of salt: First, My portafilter is always in the machine (accept for when I knock out the puck and wash it, of course). I don’t lock it, just “store” it in the group in a way that it stays there and doesn’t push against the gasket. This way, when the group heats, the PF heats with it and is a part of the thermal mass of the group. When you make a shot everything is nice and hot, and you don’t confuse things with different temperatures of the group and the PF.
Common sense tells me the above is how the machine was designed to be used. If you think about it, the group and PF are like a large heat sink. They absorb heat from the water and lose heat to the surrounding air. The software uses the temperature of the water to calculate how to control the heating element to turn on and off so that the end result will be the set temperature in the group. So if you add/remove metal mass from the machine, or if part of the mass (the PF) is at a colder temperature because it wasn’t in the group, this can cause a change in the temperature of the water in the thermosyphon and confuse the software, resulting in the fluctuations you see in group temperature.
I don’t have a group thermometer so can’t confirm this, but you do, so it should be very easy to see if keeping the PF in the group stabilises the temperature or not. If it does, then your problem is solved.
Well, after a few tests, this is what I will do going forward: leave the machine to warm up without portafilter, and 4-5 minutes before making a shot I will lock in the portafilter to reduce the idle temperature to around 91-91.5 and more importantly the extraction temperature to around 92 (+-0.5), this is all in temperature setting 0.
Another option is to find a position (not too tight, not too loose) for the portafilter to be locked in the grouphead.
Strange thing is, I did not have any problems like this in the first weeks of use so something happened inside the machine but at least I am glad I could find a “fix” for it. Will come back with updates and readings from the thermometer after a few more tests.
Who knows, maybe it will help somebody that has problems with the stability and doesn’t have a thermometer and has the V2 of the Mara (as Lelit said when I spoke with them, the V2 has a new more “aggressive” software to get the machine warmer faster and I am guessing they do this by overheating it after start-up).
Well, yeah, but it seems to be reliable and the only way to get the temperature to normal again.
On another note, the machine has now been warming up from a cold start for about an hour on the “steam mode” or the 0 position on the switch and at temperature setting 2 and the manometer for the steam pressure reads around 0.75 bar. I checked the manual and it should be, according to the manual, between 1.3-1.6 bar.
No, it doesn’t, but I don’t use the steam mode, it’s just a test I did. But to be honest I am a bit afraid that the problem could be with something that may affect the machine long term and cause some real damage.
RobertRo101 this is what I will do going forward: leave the machine to warm up without portafilter,
Not sure about the rest, but is there a specific reason for you to insist on warming up the machine without the portafilter in the group?
I am not insisting to do that. I don’t actually want to have to do that. But this way, after the warm-up I can insert the cold portafilter for 2-3 minutes and drop the group temp a bit and also the brew temp, and it seems, at least on the thermometer reading, that the temp is more stable this way. I did another test from a cold star-up with the pf locked in and it still was a bit too hot, 92.5 was the reading and the extraction was around 93-93.5.
If I am reading this thread right you have only had this machine for a short time? If so, and you are unable to reach satisfaction with the workflow or the machine, I would return it and get something else. I would not want to put up with that. Very frustrating for you. I am hopeful this gets resolved, because this is supposed to be fun and satisfying. Temperature stability is important. I have an Elizabeth, and it is rock solid. Keep us posted, but I would have a low threshold for returning it if you are not satisfied. There are so many good machines.
RobertRo101 - in all honesty… short of thinking the PF can act as a heat sink,I don’t understand how the relative low mass of brass is influencing thermal stability in such way.
I don’t know either, I can make a video for you guys to show what I mean, but I just made a coffee and I will let the machine a little time, around 20 min, to stabilize.
@dndrich unfortunately, it has just passed the 30 day return period, I think it turns 6 weeks on Monday:))
In all seriousness, I was very very satisfied with the machine and the temperature stability and range first, coming from a 41TEM it was amazing, but something happened, and from a smart Mara it turned into a much dumber Mara in the past week.
RobertRo101 - don’t you have a 1 year guarantee against defects?
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I have warranty, I have spoken with the retailer, but they had to speak to Lelit in Italy because they did not know what was wrong from what I described to them. A guy from there told me that “a 2-3 degree difference is not that bad”:). But I was referring to the return period.
RobertRo101 Well, depending on where you bought it, perhaps they will make an exception. That assumes you might want to return it. If you bought a slightly more expensive machine, that might make it palatable for them. Just a thought. If you are going that route, then you might want to get on it this week.
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Well, that’s the second call of tomorrow’s morning. Thing is, I don’t really want to replace it, it grew on me and this setback is not that bad if it is fixed. I was enjoying it a lot while it was running normally. And with this budget, which was already stretched enough:) I could only opt for a high-end single boiler like ECM Classika PID, but I am yet to find good tests for its temperature stability or the Minima, but that would have to wait a few months to get by budget in range.
RobertRo101 Yep I understand. You might consider the Elizabeth. Just a bit more money. Doesn’t have that sexy curb appeal, but you cannot beat the performance for the price. Mine has been amazing.
This video should explain it a bit better:
(sorry if shaky, I just realized that 4k60fps doesn’t have movement stabilization)
Essentially, after inserting the portafilter, the temperature will drop and stay between 91.4-91.8 and stay there, add 0.5 degrees to that number, and that is the average temp during the first extraction. This temp will eventually increase if the portafilter is left there long enough (IDK how long exactly, I observed this phenomenon after a cold start with the pf locked since the begging), to around 92.5-93, again, add 0.5 to that to get the average stable brewing temp.
As I said above, the temp I get without the portafilter is 93-94, after adding 0.5, the average temp, in this case, is 93.5-94.5 during brewing, which is very high for the lowest setting and was not the case with the machine in the first weeks of use, and it fluctuates much much more than the extractions using the processes described above, which are very stable.
RobertRo101 - What happens if:
- You do exactly what you did above;
- After 20 minutes, come back to the machine;
- What will the reading on the thermometer be?
- Make sure your machine is not in standby mode.
At a guess, your machine is in “Brew priority mode”. As soon as you lift the lever to brew, the manometer will start climbing to 1.25 bar. Is that right?
If you then repeat the same process in “HX” mode, potentially your manometer will always be around 1.1 bar or so. Is that right?
The only conclusion I have from the video is that your portafilter is becoming a heat sink - but eventually will stabilise with the rest of the group, hence why I ask the question above.
If the machine wasn’t behaving like that from original, let’s face it, there’s a problem somewhere. It’s unlikely to be water as the machine is so new - Unless your water is very very hard and there’s some scale on the probes already.
No, the machine has standby mode disabled. And will test what you said after it has cooled down so I can do a proper cold start.
- Yes, that is the steam boost and it works, it actually goes above 1.25, depending on how many coffees I make, it can go up to 2 bar
- When I tested HX mode on temperature 2, the highest, the steam pressure was at 0.75 and in the manual it says it should be at 1.2-1.6 bar
I don’t think it is the water, I have a reverse osmosis system that we use as our daily drinking water and used it for the past 2-3 years on other machines without any problem and never had scale built up, and we also tested the water and the result were great
RobertRo101 When I tested HX mode on temperature 2, the highest, the steam pressure was at 0.75 and in the manual it says it should be at 1.2-1.6 bar
And, when you pulled a shot, did the needle move to cause a boost?
Yes, it did.
Just did what you asked @MediumRoastSteam and after 20 minutes with the portafilter inserted (of course, after the machine is already warmed for at least 45 minutes and standby disabled, brew priority and temp setting 0), the thermometer reads 92.2 and the pf is as hot as the group, it literally burns if you touch it for more than 1 second, and also the wood handle is hot, not very hot, but hot.
RobertRo101 - So in a way the machine is stuck in Brew priority mode rather than HX mode? (I.e.: There’s no boost in HX mode)