europa I asked if the water level was dropping, but from the videos, it doesn’t look like it is.

In the absence of information, I am guessing/assuming (you must help by answering anything (if you can) I have wrong).

  • Solenoids are randomly clicking sometimes and your didn’t do anything, no pattern to this?
  • Pump runs to autofill boiler, level doesn’t drop
  • pump times out after running and running
  • none of this is self initiated (except perhaps an autofill when you use the service boiler) e.g. you are not pulling water from the group
  • No water is coming from the group when the pump is simply running trying to fill the service boiler
  • there is no pattern to this happening?
  • You have not done anything with the wiring, it has not been in for repair and a repair shop souched the wiring

If this is the case, then you probably need a new Gicar box

There are a few tests you can do, but if the problem is intermittent, they probably won’t do much good.

Contact me

      DavecUK

      Thanks, Dave.

      Unsure whether it’s the solenoids, and i do not understand how to test with wooden dowels. No pattern to it.

      Hard to tell if level in tank drops, but i have not had problems steaming. Strange that water is being drawn back into the tank, is it not?

      Pump times out with error code 3 - see new video below.

      It doesn’t happen when pulling water from the group.

      No water comes from group when the pump tries to autofill steam boiler.

      No pattern, but it’s getting more frequent.

      I have not done anything with the wiring. It was sent to BB for a new OPV mid March. Then last weekend i put in another new OPV myself. I endeavoured not to touch anything else than the OPV, but i had to remove the back casing to put the silicone tube back. But i don’t think that is the cause as these issues didn’t start immediately after swapping the OPV. However, i cannot be sure.

        Here you can see the timeout with error code, and also that the drip has returned :

        A wooden dowel pressed against the solenoid body allows you to feel the click through your fingertips. In this way you can identify which solenoid is doing the clicking.

        Water we’ll go back to the tank from the expansion valve as it opens at whatever pressure you have said it to, so if no water is going into the service boiler that water flow from the solenoid will be quite high. I’m assuming that when brewing, a pressure gauge is going up to about 9 bar so that the solenoid isn’t set unusually low?

        I think the best thing to do is just to contact bellabarista explain what’s happening show them the videos and let them take a look at the machine.

        Contact me

        @europa :

        • does this happen if the steam boiler is off? (I think you said it does not, but could you confirm please)
        • Is there a pressure reading on the manometer at the front of the machine when this is happening?

          europa - thank you.

          So this is one for Dave, but the reason I ask is this:

          There are only two possibilities of the machine returning water to the tank: it’s either via the Expansion valve or the safety valve. The other hose joining the X fitting is a dead end at the back of the steam tap, serving as a plug.

          So, if water is returning via the expansion valve, it must be under pressure for it to open up. When you use the blind basket (without steam boiler on) what pressure do you read?

          so my thought was that it might be that the steam boiler is overfilling and water escaping through the safety valve (although u likely as the water would be very hot and spluttering I believe). Are you able to draw steam normally when that’s happening?

            I get 9 bar with the blind basket.

            Unless I’m mistaken, the videos appear to show the water coming from the safety valve. However, i can confirm the water going back into the tank is not too hot.

            When i draw steam, however, it appears to be overly forceful and spluttering.

              europa The vacuum breaker vents to the drip tray, so it’s the expansion valve or as @MediumRoastSteam says, could be the safety valve. It’s difficult to tell, but in the first video, there appears to be bubbles emanating from the safety valve? Does this always happen? The cameras moving around a lot so difficult to see.

              From your description there appears to be multiple errors

              • Leaking Safety valve?
              • Funny solenoid action
              • Pump activation without steam boiler filling?
              • Steam is OK but splutters?
              • leaking connector?
              • pump runs on?
              • is there a level probe fault?

              So many problems, that might or might not be happening, I am having trouble just zoning in on things in a deluge of “possible” information. You need to compartmentalise this and work through a series of logical steps to figure this out. Let me give you some examples, of my thought processes….

              Is the service boiler over filling - open steam wand and run pump against a blind filter, or next time it autofills open steam wand. (It is tricky with the hot water, because it always takes that from the brew boiler). or remove a fitting and look (cold boiler of course)?

              Isolate the tube from the safety valve…is the water actually coming from there…or the vacuum breaker

              Is that clunking a solenoid, or the safety valve popping open and closed (if it’s the safety valve) then the only thing wrong with the machine might be a faulty safety valve. It’s why I asked if you could feel (with a wooden dowel) any solenoids clicking). Although it doesn’t explain why the pump runs on…perhaps another fault with the level probe wire.

              Contact me

                The thing is, with the Elizabeth, the safety valve is always flooded by the water coming from the expansion valve, through the X connector, down to the “door” of the safety valve. Safety valve gets hot, boils the water, and makes the machine gurgle. Nothing wrong, but a poor design from Lelit. I’ve been going on and on about this for a while now. 😊🤌… to the point I have re-routed mine and removed that X fitting. Hasn’t gurgled since, for 1.5 years. 😊

                To make sure it’s the safety valve, sending the water from the drip tray you can simple remove the hose from the safety valve to the X fitting and catch the water. But also make sure you catch the water from the exposed X fitting just in case it’s coming from the OPV.

                Once confirmed, put a cable tie into those hoses for good measure as they came undone on mine… another reason why I don’t like that X fitting design.

                If it’s the safety valve… best to let BB know as there’s something not right.

                Good luck.

                Thanks a lot for the help, guys. Given the issue isn’t happening all the time, it’s quite difficult (for me) to test all your suggestions, such as removing hoses to isolate the problem. The easiest is probably to just send the machine to BB.

                However, for my own info:

                @MediumRoastSteam, you say above “To make sure it’s the safety valve, sending the water from the drip tray…” Apols if I’m being very thick, but why would it be sending water from the drip tray?

                  PS I’ve just rewatched my videos and realised they don’t really show the issue as clearly as I thought. Whilst water and air bubbles are clearly moving through the tube from the safety valve, there is no sign of any water/air moving through the tube from the OPV (but that could also be because there are no air bubbles, so hard to see movement!)

                    europa sending the water from the drip tray

                    Sorry, not you but me! That should read "To make sure it’s the safety valve sending the water to the water tank you can simple remove the hose from the safety valve to the X fitting and catch the water.

                    europa there is no sign of any water/air moving through the tube from the OPV (but that could also be because there are no air bubbles, so hard to see movement!)

                    Remove the X fitting out of the equation and see where the water is coming from. That’s the only way to be sure really.

                        BB has just come back asking me to do a citric-acid descale. Apparently, error code 3 can be caused by scale.

                          europa - What sort of water have you been feeding the machine with? Isn’t your machine relatively new, like 1 year old or so? I think if it was limescale you’d see other signs, some calcium deposits around the X connector and on the dispersion plate. IMO, at least.

                              MediumRoastSteam

                              Lockhills.

                              It’s 15 mths old.

                              I also doubt it’s scale, but probably one of those formalities BB suggests first.

                                Just a quick update after following @DavecUK descaling instructions. To rinse out the descaler, i emptied and refilled the service boiler several times (as the water was quite grey). At no point did i observe the pump-running-on issue during the process. Then, this morning i switched on the machine and, again, no issue. However, a little while ago, the problem reapppeared. This is what i did:

                                • I switched on service boiler and waited for it to reach temp.

                                • I extracted some water from the hot-water wand to warm the cup.

                                • This triggered a short auto refill of the service boiler. No problem so far.

                                • After about one minute, however, the pump started again and did not stop until i extracted some steam from the steam wand.

                                Having observed more closely, it looks as though the water to the tank is not actually coming from the steam-boiler safety valve after all. Instead, it appears to be coming through the OPV. It is also at about the same temp as the water in the tank. So, my guess is: something is calling for a refill; however, the brew boiler and steam boiler are already full (so all valves are closed). As the water has nowhere to go, the OPV opens and lets it through. If this is correct, the water is simply being pumped from the tank via the OPV and back to the tank again. Does that make any sense?

                                PS BB has just come back with the following suggestions:
                                - take out the level probe examine and clean, as necessary. [should be fairly simple]
                                - check how close your micro switch is to the brew lever. This could be false triggering. [this I don’t understand]

                                  europa the OPV opens and lets it through. If this is correct, the water is simply being pumped from the tank via the OPV and back to the tank again. Does that make any sense?

                                  That does make sense.

                                  Your machine does not have a brew lever, that would be for an E61 machine.

                                  Contact me

                                    Further update. Spoke to Chris @ BB yesterday. For some reason, he thought i had a Profitec, hence the brew lever thing.

                                    Anyway, after i suggested the solenoid valve could be the issue, he suggested i remove the solenoid to check the magnetic field. Haven’t bothered with that yet as i haven’t had the issue since, and the valve is working during normal auto fills. Also, found an app called Danfoss Magnetic Tool. This uses the magnetometer in one’s smartphone to detect a magnetic field. It actually works!

                                    Another thing i did was to inspect the level probe. Strangely, it was so loose that pulling on the connector pulled the probe itself upwards. So i tightened the smaller nut, removed the connector and unscrewed the whole unit. No sign of anything at all on the probe. I replaced it and then removed the filling tube from the steam boiler. Again, nothing untoward there. The only slightly-odd thing was that it was not pushed down to the black mark (that is made by the technicians during production). So i pushed it down a bit further when replacing it.

                                    So far so good. Tho’ i suspect i won’t be trouble free for long hehe.