Pretty longish video with JH and Prof Tim Spector. I have saved it to my play list to watch leisurely. https://youtu.be/XO-7irGCaTA

I skimmed it listening to the bits I was interested….pretty good/interesting chat!

Interesting video. Nothing new for most of us. The main points are : - Coffee is healthy and contains more soluble fibre than people think. - Drink coffee the way we would like to drink - Does affect sleep and caffeine can stay in our blood for more than 5 to 7 hours. - Decaf is good and is not definitely a cheaper drink. JH avoids caffeine after 3 pm. - Adding milk to coffee is ok and probably less reason to add it in light and medium light roasts as they are not bitter -Coffee from shops are generally bitter and hence milk-based drinks are popular -It will be good if people can experiment drinking coffee without milk to get a real taste of it!

My phone suggested this to me today: https://phys.org/news/2023-06-unsustainable-coffee-production-people-sick.html

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p46792 I guess the use of agrichemicals (especially the banned ones) is not great. One thing though, if they weren't employed in the coffee industry and making money etc.. What else would they be doing, living in poverty, growing cocaine, or poppies (which is what they usually do instead of coffee). It could be argued that more people will get ill and die from the alternatives at the moment? I know one thing for sure…when the west steps in and (helps) interferes many years later, it's hard to see the positive effects of that help. I'm thinking of Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Ukraine, even Iran (where USA ) interfered big time to remove the then Shah….dunno

Is there any correlation, or recommendation in the video as to how much coffee is healthy, or a tipping point where it generally becomes unhealthy?

99% of our daily lives are bad for our health, from the stuff we wash in, eat, drive, breathe etc I enjoy coffee. If it kills me I'll die happy

@"Cuprajake"#p46798 - same here. I am a firm believer that it’s fine to have things in moderation. As you say, I enjoy coffee and won’t stop drinking unless my doctor tells me to. Same with beer, same with wine, red meets, cured meats, etc, etc etc.

Funny but it seems that whatever we eat or drink if over done it can cause us harm. Even scientists say that a vegan diet is not altogether healthy and there are elements in meat which we need that a plant based diet just cannot give you. Plus, I have seen a lot of overweight vegetarians/vegans, so whatever it is they are eating cannot be that good for them surely or like us meat eaters are they just greedy. I guess the answer for everyone including the vegetarians and vegans is 'a little bit of what you fancy does you good' A lot does not. I remember seeing this programme, where this large lady was complaining about being overweight and couldn't understand it as she said she ate healthily, and produced her normal breakfast bowl of fresh fruit berries etc to prove it. Trouble was, the bowl was piled high with all this lovely sweet sugary fresh fruit and what does sugar have lots of…calories. To me, the biggest problem we have especially in the west, is lack of both self control and personal responsibility (and yes to a certain extent I put myself in that bracket, especailly as I've gotten older). We smoke and drink and pig out on stuff, can't be arsed to exercise then moan when we fall ill.

@"Pompeyexile"#p46814 Absolutely spot on. Also like with everything it’s hard to know which studies/research/reports are fact and which have been paid for by an organisation with a stake in the discussion. I’ve been vegan almost three years and I’m in the best shape of my life by a country mile. However it takes the same discipline as with any other diet to not reach for the sugary snacks and processed c**p. I could just as easily be overweight on a vegan diet as I could with any other. Interestingly that Tim Spector in the vid above has a company called Zoe which targets gut health. It revolves around the idea that each of us are entirely unique and one diet/food/drink that affects one person doesn’t automatically affect the next in the same way. This seems to contradict the ‘one size fits all’ approach to nutrition and health that we’ve been used to for hundreds of years. All about listening to you body and doing what feels right for you. I think it also changes with age. I would happily consume 6 coffees a day when I was younger without issue. Doing that now would have me truly on edge. Whereas I know plenty of people who drink more than that, or can’t even have 3.

I went vegan, very strictly, Aug/sept 19, near 18st by the end of first lockdown in what march 2020 I was 12:4 I did it to cut out all my processed and junk food. You can buy just as bad vegan stuff now I'm now an omnivore, as in I may have a piece of meat once a month, I eat mainly fish, and lots of veg pasta, cut out milk too, I've always been a big water drinker 4l plus a day I'm not stable at 13st 4 my body seems happy here, General rule is a little bit of what you like does you good, too much of what you like makes you fat 😂😁

Is Coffee healthy ?

Grahamsphillips

Grahamsphillips Ouch! That really is late! Do wake up late too? This thing about Larks and Owls is real. Its baked into our genes!

DavecUK

Grahamsphillips Depends…sometimes I do, sometimes not. Rarely do I not sleep deeply and undisturbed. E.g never need to wake up in middle of night to pee or anything like that.

Grahamsphillips

John_Yossarian No one can tell you that. It would very much depend on the current state of your microbiota and probs WHICH coffee and how much you consume. Overall the evidence seems to be “coffee drinkers live longer” but on an individual basis? Well its very unlikely to be harmful…

LMSC

My number of cups have gone down to 3 max during the last couple of months; I don’t feel comfortable if I have had the 4th cup. I always go decaf after 2 pm.

chlorox

Grahamsphillips

Sorry what do u mean by tipping point ? Do u mean the point at which optimal gains are received healthwise after which the health benefits drops off and the negative issues begin to rise?

There is also the question of how much is each at 3-4 drinks a day. The traditional single shot of Italian espresso at 7g of ground coffee is quite different from the much higher amounts at which we typically dose today for every cup of espresso.

Grahamsphillips

chlorox Yes exactly that - if an apple a day keeps the doctor away (actually it doesn’t but that’s a whole other story!) then are 2 or 3 or 5 or 6 apples even healthier? Obviously not- there’s a tipping point. Andy yes you are right a traditional single espresso is half or less of a double and so on. Even more so coffee is incredibly complex so which bean and how its prepared will have an effect

chlorox

Grahamsphillips

Thats why I have limited myself to mostly 2 coffees a day since that is the equivalent of at least 4 Italian single shot espressos. Or trying to anyway as i am used to 3 a day. On top of that, I am using filter paper for every shot to filter out more of the coffee oils as it is supposed to help lower the lipids that end up in the coffee for the sake of cardiovascular health, though I have come across a study that suggested those coffee oils may be good for health in themselves.

Grahamsphillips

The stuff on lipids is complete bunk! Most things on cholesterol, sat fats and statins are bunk too I’m afraid

DavecUK

Grahamsphillips The stuff on lipids is complete bunk! Most things on cholesterol, sat fats and statins are bunk too I’m afraid

Completely agree, we have the liar “scientist” Ancel Keys to blame for that

chlorox

Grahamsphillips

Thats interestintlg. Do you disagree that hdl and ldl ands triglyceride levels in the blood are useful to indicate the state of cardiovascular health? Also do you believe in the plaque and inflammation theories for what causes cardiovascular disease? What theory or model do you subscribe to if not? Do u also follow an alternative diet like paleo or keto? BTW i don’t have an iron in the fire so to speak in asking these questions as I don’t have any particular position on health issues as long as it is proven to work and so I am genuinely curious what you think on these things.

chlorox

DavecUK

Whatever one may think of his 7 nations study, keys at least literally put his own money where his mouth was - he reportedly built a home on naples, Italy to live there at least part of the time on tbe Mediterranean diet till he passed away at the age of 100…

Grahamsphillips

chlorox No I’m completely with you! Forget total cholesterol (there’s no such thing as “good and bad” cholesterol either!) but there IS such a thing as damaged (oxidised!) lipids! And yes HDL:Trigs is the salient ratio. Yes re inflammation and yes re plaque (but no, its not about LDL)

For more (if interested) click here!

https://www.prolongevity.co.uk/malcolm-kendrick

DavecUK

chlorox Whatever one may think of his 7 nations study, keys at least literally put his own money where his mouth was - he reportedly built a home on naples, Italy to live there at least part of the time on tbe Mediterranean diet till he passed away at the age of 100…

Keys lied and twisted the science which has negatively affected outcomes for millions of people for many decades…unforgivable!

He created a link between saturated fats and heart disease that didn’t exist…it also meant the role of sugar was completely overlooked. To the detriment of millions.

Grahamsphillips

https://reference.medscape.com/viewarticle/973640?ecd=mkm_ret_230623_mscpmrk-GB_ExcNews_etid5559340&uac=203628PR&impID=5559340&faf=1

chlorox

Grahamsphillips .

thanks i will have a listen….

Grahamsphillips

DavecUK spot on @DavecUK Have your read Pure White and Deadly?

Grahamsphillips

DavecUK And seed oils of course!

chlorox

DavecUK

Grahamsphillips

I thought keys’ main recommendation was that the Mediterranean diet was the ideal diet thar he thought was best for health. Does the Mediterranean diet fall in the category of healthy diets for you?

On your criticism against keys, what do you think of this White Paper on his 7 nations study that responds to the criticisms often made in contemporary times against his study, which include the things raised by Dave also?

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/38/42/3119/4600167

Grahamsphillips

chlorox Argh! The notorious Walter Willett! Complete charlatan.. Read Nina Teicholz’s book or simply follow her blog or many youtubes!

Grahamsphillips

Hi @chlorox Keys theory (completely devoid of evidence) was that Sat Fat raised cholesterol, blocked your arteries and killed you. Except dietary cholesterol has almost NO effect on cholesterol levels per se - because that’s what your liver is for! Second there’s ZERO link between cardio-vascular death (and all cause mortality) and total cholesterol. The link is with damaged (oxidised) lipids. Effectively rusting of the body! Keys studied 21 countries and reported on only the 7 that fitted his pre judged ideas. Even the original Framingham data doesn’t support Key’s assertions

chlorox

Grahamsphillips

Is there an article that usefully combines all the points wirh rhebsupporting evidence behind your argument against keys that I can refer to vis a vis eg that white paper so as to get an idea of the debate?

I also asked about what you think of the Mediterranean diet so as to get an idea where you stand on this - does that diet comport with your view on the ideal diet? It doesn’t seem that keys is footing a purely vegan diet at all - just a reduction in meat and greater reliance on beans, legumes, leafy greens and herbs, etc.

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