Cuprajake Not Dave, but yes, you are totally correct. If you use R Pavlis’s recipe, no scale. I just like the flavour with Magnesium… (possibly a ‘problem’ due to my preference for dark roasts - we are finding Black Cat’s Chocolate Point a bit too acidic, even brewed at 90 °C)

    Cuprajake

    So no need to drain the service boiler after a period of time and draw water after steaming etc.?

    The reason I went with sodium bicarbonate and zero water was it was simple andI could understand it.

    Is it the same principle, as in adding the potassium to bring up alkalinity to the desireable level

      CoyoteOldMan Black Cat’s Chocolate Point

      Wow! You may try 1 or 2C higher I pulled at 92/98.

      I feed the default remineralised RO. On an average, over the last 1 year, , the feeding water had the general hardness of 9 mg/l, alkalinity of about 40 mg/l and TDS of 35-45. The steam water averaged about 18 mg/l to 20 mg/l, the alkalinity of 45 mg/l to 50 mg/l and the TDS of 75-80.

        Cuprajake If using potassium there should be nothing to scale. @DavecUK am I correct

        You are correct, I don’t believe potassium carbonate scales….but over time the service boiler concentration will rise, at which point you should refresh the water once it gets above a level you are comfortable with.

          dutchy101

          Correct no need

          It’s a very easy mix, make a concentrate. Then dose that to the water

          10g potassium bicarbonate to 1litre rodi/distilled water

          Then 10g of the concentration to 1litre of rodi/distilled water for the machine.

          You can go more, you can go less.

          I believe the thinking behind it is that coffee is full of potassium so you don’t notice it, while using different water influences the taste.

          I’ve never really know any difference.

          I could try using ashbeck for a month to see if I did I suppose.

          Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

            dutchy101 Is it the same principle, as in adding the potassium to bring up alkalinity to the desireable level (67 mg/l)?

            Sodium or potassium bicarbonate - same principle (re: alkalinity and scaling); just adjust to the different molecular weight. Only potential difference is that coffee is quite rich in potassium, so potassium is supposed to alter the taste less. Does it? I don’t know!

              CoyoteOldMan My belief is that sodium ions in the water allow the human taste buds to work better….as it is a “flavour enhancer”, or perhaps flavour suppressor might be a better term, allowing you to taste other flavours better. My belief is potassium does this also, but not as well as sodium.

              But does sodium scale?

              Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

              Umm,

              May try it next batch of water.

              I used to use all this stuff for my marine fish

              I’ll try to find the weights for the sodium bicarbonate, there’s also sodium carbonate which is stronger haha

              Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                Cuprajake I’m not sure that Na2CO3 will work as an alkaline buffer (i.e. stabilising acidity) - it will definitely modify pH and alkalinity, but it may well work.

                For NaHCO3 (sodium bicarbonate) instead of KHCO3 , just multiply whatever weight you were using for potassium by 84% (i.e. 8.4 grams instead of your ‘usual’ 10 grams for the concentrate)

                LMSC You may try 1 or 2C higher I pulled at 92/98.

                Yep - that worked nicely, thank you! Acid tang gone.
                I still prefer their Twilight blend… or even my usual Illy, as long as it’s fresh. I’m irredeemable, I know.

                DavecUK Bacterial contamination, .. it won’t last more than 3 days.

                I was filtering 12 to 16 l per day from an osmo zero.

                So do you finish the 12-16 L in 3 days? Sorry for silly question. I think better to be safe than sorry for healthy related question.

                Cuprajake

                10g potassium bicarbonate to 1litre rodi/distilled water

                Then 10g of the concentration to 1litre of rodi/distilled water for the machine.

                Is these two sentences the same meaning?

                DavecUK

                , I don’t believe potassium carbonate scales….but over time the service boiler concentration will rise, at which point you should refresh the water once it gets above a level you are comfortable with.

                I planned to start with a simple route of only dosing potassium carbonate but I am confused here. What is service boiler concentration? Refresh means draining all the water out then replace with new water?

                  Knluk Is these two sentences the same meaning?

                  No - first step produces a litre of concentrate (so you can measure fairly accurately how much bicarbonate you are adding, instead of going into fractions of a milligramme). The second step dilutes the concentrate to what is actually needed for brewing.

                  Knluk What is service boiler concentration? Refresh means draining all the water out then replace with new water?

                  As you draw steam from the service boiler, whatever salts are in the boiler water get progressively more concentrated (the steam contains no salts) - thus they can scale and/or corrode the boiler. Refreshing is draining and replacing with new water - ideally, for a service boiler, with a low concentration of anything!

                    CoyoteOldMan

                    • MgSO4 · 7 H2O (Epsom salts) - 148 mg/l

                    • KHCO3 (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l

                    • NaCl (table salt) - 25 mg/l

                    May I summarise my understanding? So

                    • MgSO4 · 7 H2O (Epsom salts) - 148 mg/l is for better taste. And the Magnesium can help avoiding scaling?
                    • KHCO3 (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l - for avoid scaling and if use sodium bicarbonate can also enhance taste?
                    • NaCl (table salt) - 25 mg/l - for better taste

                    So, if I use potassium bicarbonate only, it should be free from scaling.

                    Alternatively, if I am using sodium carbonate, I should add the other two for scale avoidance and also enhancing taste.

                    CoyoteOldMan

                    For me, for me. I also drain a cup of water in the evening, but inevitably over a few weeks the water does end up at (or just over) scaling point in the steam boiler, as it gets replaced with tank (brew) water. Which is why a ‘reload’ with pure water should help.

                    Sorry I am really confused here. Does steam boiler has a scaling point? How can I check the point? Reload with pure water? Does it need to be mineralised pure water?

                      CoyoteOldMan No - first step produces a litre of concentrate (so you can measure fairly accurately how much bicarbonate you are adding, instead of going into fractions of a milligramme). The second step dilutes the concentrate to what is actually needed for brewing.

                      If I prepare 1L of mineralised water with the correct contents of minerals, why do I need to dilute it before using it for brewing? I feel myself very slow in understanding this. But I will get it when I use the system. :)

                        The steam is evaporation.

                        As you evaporate water to get steam the water left gets stronger, and stronger.

                        The steam is what you would make distilled water from if you let it cool. So all the bad stuff is left in the boiler. Do this enough with bad water you get scale.

                        Re the sodium carbonate. Don’t use that it’s too strong. That was just my question

                        Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                        Knluk If I prepare 1L of mineralised water with the correct contents of minerals, why do I need to dilute it before using it for brewing?

                        If we take sodium bicarbonate as an example, to get the correct level of alkalinity you want 67mg / litre of zero water. This is a tiny amount and almost impossible to weigh out accurately. Making up 5 litres with 320mg is easier to do. Alternatively you can make up a concentrate to use

                        Knluk KHCO3 (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l - for avoid scaling and if use sodium bicarbonate can also enhance taste?

                        The purpose of potassium (or sodium) bicarbonate is not to “avoid scaling”. Water for brewing coffee needs some alkalinity to taste good (and some alkaline buffer will also help with corrosion - pure water can become acidic by absorbing CO2 from air). However, potassium or sodium bicarbonate by itself will not create scale.

                        Knluk the Magnesium can help avoiding scaling

                        Quite the opposite, unfortunately. Magnesium and calcium salts are likely to cause scale. Magnesium (carbonate) is more benign than calcium - partly because it doesn’t tend to ‘stick to itself’ as much as calcium carbonate does, and partly because it creates less amount of scale to start with. However, water containing (bi)carbonate ions and calcium or magnesium ions in quantities generally believed to be ‘good’ for making coffee will scale.

                        Knluk Does steam boiler has a scaling point? How can I check the point? Reload with pure water? Does it need to be mineralised pure water?

                        Dissolved minerals in a steam/service boiler will tend to get more concentrated over time, as steam is extracted but none of the minerals/salts in the water. If you use the spreadsheet that @Rob1 has created, it has a page to help you predict ‘when’ it will scale, depending on your water characteristics and usage, but the TL;DR message is “it will scale if you use calcium and/or magnesium”.

                        It is a good practice to dilute the minerals by discharging some mineral-rich water regularly (every day) and replacing it with (at least) brewing water. Even better is to empty the boiler regularly, and re-fill it with de-mineralised water.