Good afternoon, and condolences to our British friends who lost their queen. I am Italian and I just moved to the UK. I have to buy a bean-to-cup machine (the reason why is s a long story) but I much prefer filter coffee, as brewed by Technivorm KB741. Can someone recommend which of these all-in-one makers comes closest to a filter coffee flavour and taste? Sage Oracle Touch JURA E8 De'Longhi Prima Donna Elite (chocolate, cold coffee and cold milk froth) De'Longhi Prima Donna Soul One (more options for longer brews, including coffee pot) Melitta Barista TS SMART Other ? Thank you in advance for your time and expertise. Tommaso

@"ascanio1"#p27031 Welcome to the forum! I doubt if you will get a serious B2C recommendation on this forum, without understand the why! Would you mind briefly setting out the reasons please? Thx Edit : If you want a filter / pour over, please get a V60, Clever, … ; a separate grinder; and, of course some good coffee beans! :-)

I do remember vaguely quite some time ago Dave C did a review on a melitta machine? Apologies if my memory serves me badly Dave.

@"coffeealex"#p27040 it serves you well, but like @"LMSC"#16 I would also like to understand the reason. It's very hard to recommend anything without understanding.

@"LMSC"#p27035 good morning and thank you for the welcome! The reason is that my wife (i) refuses to clutter our kitchen counter and (ii) wants a machine that can produce different coffee based drinks as cappuccino. She's entitle to both these conditions because we recently moved to England to a home of my preference that has a smaller kitchen than another home that she preferred and I restored my grandfather's classic car, which cost us quite a bit. The compromise was a toy for me and a toy for her! Mine is way more costly so, we agreed, we would spend any amount of money on her coffee maker. I managed to obtain that we would choose the one that makes the closest iteration to a filter coffee. In the morning she has no space to cook breakfast because of my choice of home/kitchen, if I "*play around*" on the kitchen counter. Also, she has been wanting an all-in-one cappuccino and other coffee based drinks machine for for years but I have always resisted it. I hope that this explains why it is already decided that it will be a bean-to-cup machine, and that the only thing that I can do is damage control. I can reduce the damage by choosing the B2C that brews the closest coffee to what I like (filter) 🤷🏻♂️ Marriage is the art of compromise!

A friend owns a De Longhi PrimaDonna Elite but owned a Sage Oracle beforehand. He claims that the former brews a closer iteration to a proper filter coffee, because the osmosis and brewing happens over a longer time, and without any pressure, if one makes the appropriate selection. Does anyone have insights, into the different brewing systems/methods of those five B2C machines or others?

I don't think many on here use that method tbh So you may struggle for a good answer

@"ascanio1"#p27068 Thank you! I appreciate your detailed reasons. I remember @"DavecUK"#1 mentioning elsewhere a few years ago that his 80+ grandma loves Melitta. They have some deals going on at the moment. https://www.melitta.co.uk/products/coffee-machines/bean-to-cup-machines/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInOKC4veg-gIVBGHmCh0jDQ2AEAAYASAAEgJPVfD_BwE&p=1 Oracle touch will cost you about £1500. I never owned a B2C. However, I have had loads of coffee of all types from them including from my current work place of 9 years. They have over a dozen very expensive B2C machines reeling out espresso to all milk-based coffee. I never liked them and ended up disliking coffee completely. My view is therefore likely to be biased. My concern with the B2C would be reliability, after warranty service + parts and the quality of the coffee from them. I am not sure espresso to a long black / an Americano from B2C can mirror the flavours and the quality of pour overs from a V60 or a Clever. If you want a filter coffee, please get a grinder, buy some good coffee and filter accessories. Please don’t expect these machines to match the filter. They are different IMO. Can the B2C grind light to medium? How would the coffee be if you prefer these? The space is often a premium for most of us. You can get a compact dual boiler (Elizabeth) or Mara X. They are very fast and quiet. You can get the Niche Zero or something else as a single dose grinder. This combination will serve you guys well, if you look after them! The grinder and good water are very important. They won’t take much space. @"MediumRoastSteam"#51 has this set up at home as his space is very limited. How many coffees do you guys make with and without milk a day? We all comprise at home. We want to put a smile on our family members’ faces as much as possible. But, with all respect, your wife might not be aware or realise she can make all types of coffee (far better than what we get from B2C or coffee shops), with a bit of practice, with the machines like Liz and a good grinder. A separate espresso machine and a grinder is also perfect compromise - your wife can make what ever she likes and you don’t have to worry about closer to filter! I am sure Dave and other experienced members will share their thoughts and recommendations. In the end, choose well based on the requirements! GL!!! :-)

Which bean-to-cup machine brews closest taste to a filter coffee ... ?

DavecUK

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2016/07/29/melitta-caffeo-varianza-csp/

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2016/10/26/melitta-caffeo-varianza-tech-tour-videos/

I liked the internal system of the Melitta, especially as you could clean the brew unit properly and avoid the mould that would inevitably build up if you couldn’t get to it. Unfortunately milk frothing was sub-optimal and gave a froth that was too cool, which you had then had to heat up the drink in the microwave for 20 seconds.

Melitta then made a bad move, by removing the actual milk frothing wand from the other machines in their range, which meant the only option was the suboptimal frothing systems of the Varianza

CoyoteOldMan

Sorry - I can’t help other than with the observation that I had a Miele B2C (a long time ago; the model is not even made anymore), and I could never get anything drinkable out of it in any form. Same for the large Jura machines we had in the office, though there I suspect the coffee beans had as much or more demerit as the machines themselves.

However… if I understand the situation right, and your wife likes cappuccino and other espresso-based milk drinks (macchiato, flat white etc.) I think you may be better served by getting a hand grinder and a filter pot for yourself, and getting something that makes the best possible B2C espresso - not least because the requirements of doing decent filter and decent espresso-based milk drinks in terms of bean type, grinding fineness, temperature and other settings are so different that doing both on the same machine could mean a heck of a lot of faff with emptying of hoppers, changing of beans, purging, re-setting of parameters and dialing-in… every time the other person wants a coffee. For the space of a V60 and a hand grinder, that can be kept in a cupboard, IMHO not worth it.

You may find these two videos by James Hoffmann interesting, although they don’t touch on any of the models you mention above other than the possibly the Melitta. However, he does talk about some of the points to look for when buying a B2C machine.

ascanio1

CoyoteOldMan Thank you. I watched the videos but none mention which would brew a close iteration to a filter coffee.

Also, I already own a Technivorm KB741 so I do not need to buy a V60 or any other brewer. I already explained why. No space on counter in the morning for two devices. I just got a toy car, and deal was that wife gets B2C. I chose house that my wife did not like, small kitchen, bla, bla, bla… the Technivorm will be stored and we will use a B2C. Period.

I really appreciate the kind intentions and I understand - and agree - with all the reasons but, please, it is not helpful to recommend alternative solutions.

We will have a B2C. And that’s it (sadly).

I seek advice as to which B2C will brew the closest coffee iteration to a filter brewer: least pressure, closest grind option, closest temperature, longest brew time, largest infusion area/surface, etc, etc. or by having tasted the various coffees brewed by the coffee makers on that list.

Thank you, again, for the good intentions, but … it will be a B2C, and it will be only that! Which one makes the closest iteration to a filter coffee?

Thank you in advance for your understanding and patience.

dutchy101

We’ve got a Jura bean to cup machine at work. It cost about £7k. There is also a monthly service package on it at about £200 a month.

A lot of the people at work seem very happy with it, but I’m not impressed with it at all. The pitfalls of having a decent grinder and machine set up at home. There’s just no comparison at all.

ascanio1

Cuprajake thank you. I realise that there are bean, roast, grind, temperature, pressure, etc, differences and that they are on completely different philosophical spectrums but… it is what it is and I have to go along with this compromise!

Thank you for all the replies. I will read and watch the videos and revert again!

Grazie! Tommaso

LMSC

ascanio1 I have to go along with this compromise!

You don’t need to compromise the quality of the cup to compromise! Unless you get beans from stores, you risk wasting some good coffee.

ascanio1 bean, roast, grind, temperature, pressure, etc, differences and that they are on completely different philosophical spectrums

Please explain what those different philosophical spectrums are!

Cuprajake

It’s a tricky one really.

ascanio1

LMSC Thank you for your advice but, unfortunately, yes, I do need to compromise. It’s called marriage! 😀

The fundamental difference is that a B2C uses pressure while a filter does not. One system relies on pressure (that requires higher temperatures and finer grinds), while the other system relies on infusion.

There are three main variables, in coffee brewing:
Temperature
Surface area
Time

Filter coffee brewers and B2C coffee makers vary these three according to different philosophies.

ascanio1

LMSC Thank you for your detailed reply that I appreciated.

“I am not sure espresso to a long black / an Americano from B2C can mirror the flavours and the quality of pour overs from a V60 or a Clever.” Exactly! It is impossible because of beans roast, ground finesse, brew time, brew surface, etc, etc.

We make 4 coffees with a Technivorm KB741 (that we own and we will have to retire) and 4 caffé’latte per day. But, for reasons that I cannot change, I can buy and use, only one machine and it must be a B2C.

We already have a pour over (Technivorm KB741) that we will have to give away, or store in the garage.

There are other compromises and other priorities that were weighed and, unless you want to fly to England and offer your services as free marriage councillor 😅 , the best you can do to help me is not to recommend excellent alternative solutions - that I already have but cannot use - but, please, help me determine which all-in-one coffee machines brews the closest iteration to a V60 or Clever or KB741 …

🙂🙏🏻

LMSC

ascanio1 England and offer your services as free marriage councillor

What makes you think I do not live in England ? I am a technocrat and a domain expert by profession and not a marriage counsellor! 🤣

ascanio1 which all-in-one coffee machines brews the closest iteration to a V60 or Clever or KB741 …

We appreciate your circumstances. It’s a shame you keep looking for a B2C that can also address your filter requirements!

We would like to help ; but, it’s difficult as some, if not most, of us don’t see that delivering what you are after.

One compromise you can make is pull an espresso and add hot water to make an Americano!

I think one person, besides Dave, might also be able to assist is our brew guru, @MWJB. :-)

@MWJB - Sorry mate, could you look into this gentleman’s request and see what you can do please? Thx :-)

Edit

Scott Rao’s youtube video showing filter on an espresso machine ! It can also make espresso, steam milk and can’t make other milk-based coffee! It can however give you an idea, which can try at your risk. 🤔😉

ascanio1

LMSC Thank you for your suggestions and video.

Apologies for assuming that you did not live in England! In which case, condolences for your great loss. The best monarch (not only in English history but in the world) bar a few saints and a few historical figures. We were lucky to be offered the opportunity to pay homage to Her, without waiting in line for hours.

It is a very interesting video that (pleasantly) shocked me. The level of technical tuning that this chap goes to is unbelievable! Chapeau!

As for the compromise, as with all things, in the end, it boils down to priorities. Mine was a home and car over filter coffee: a larger home, a larger garage and a man’s cave, plus a toy car… for giving up an additional filter coffee machine on the kitchen counter, to avoid clutter in the morning, when we are all rushing out at the same time.

CoyoteOldMan

ascanio1 Which one makes the closest iteration to a filter coffee?

The answer is “none”. B2C machines are designed to produce something ‘close’ to espresso, not to filter. We all appreciate your reasons and limitations, but there is no getting around that point.

The fundamental difference is not just that a B2C uses pressure vs. gravity/diffusion. Dosing and extraction timing are hugely different; we may end up with a similar % extraction from the coffee bean, but the ratio of coffee to water is not the same, and adding more water to the extracted brew after brewing is not the same. I don’t know if you have seen the Scott Rao video above - which is made on something which allows a degree of control that no B2C ‘end-user oriented’ machine is able to provide - but the interesting thing for me is that it still ends up as an Americano of sort.

DavecUK

ascanio1 Did you read my reviews and watch the videos of the melitta varianza. Although it might not be the right machine for you, it will be useful to get an idea for some important things to look for in any bean-to-cup machine

LMSC

You know a lot about B2C and coffee. Unless someone chips in with a recommendation that ticks your proximity to filter or you are happy with Americano, I am afraid there isn’t anything much to what has already been stated here. Of course, other members may still chip in!

PS: Perhaps, considering your background, this is an area of expertise you may want to look into, try and check out who in your families and friends have B2C for you to try on. You may also contribute to our knowledge base in the B2C space. :-)

ascanio1

DavecUK Thank you. Now I am focusing on my quest to find which B2C brews the closest filter like coffee as the other coffee maker qualities and specificities are not so important: my wife is not fussy about coffee.

ascanio1

CoyoteOldMan Thank you. This is probably the most helpful answer which suggests that all the above B2C will make the same, bad, approximation to a filter coffee and, therefore, I can buy the cheapest one, even though, within reason, cost is not a factor.

CoyoteOldMan

ascanio1 all the above B2C will make the same, bad, approximation to a filter coffee and, therefore, I can buy the cheapest one,

Or, since they will all be equally inadequate at producing a filter-like brew, depending on how large the ‘debt’ is, you may want to choose one that makes the most decent milk drink for your wife. You’ll be having an Americano anyway… 😉

ascanio1

CoyoteOldMan Thank you as your advice is, once more, useful. Since all B2C have the same extraction/temp/etc for their “filter” approximation I will focus on the best cappuccino and caffé’latte. I watched the videos recommended and it seems that the De Longhi offers the best cappuccino so, I presume, also the best caffé’latte.

Ernie1

This might be sacrilegious to suggest and I haven’t read the thread in detail but could you not just use pre-ground coffee in a Technivorm?

I’d be interested to see if there’s a marked difference in flavour quality in B2C coffee vs pre-ground in a decent filter machine?

We had a B2C machine on each floor at the last agency I worked at (not sure on model, was massive and had a touchscreen) and it was pretty terrible. I never dared to use the milk functions as the thought of the old milk in the plumbing put me off. I’d have taken pre-ground filter every time. And in fact I did, with a V60 at my desk.

Edit: I see you need to be able to make milk-drinks on demand also. I guess B2C is the only way!

ascanio1

In a different forum was recommended that I look at the new Nespresso Next, in its various iterations, suggesting that it makes a good approximation to filter coffee, when used in the “carafe” mode (my choice of word, taken from the icon in the image).

I doubt that my wife will agree to this Nespresso as it does not make coffee based milk drinks so the whole exercise may be pointless but, does this Nespresso Next (or other B2C) make coffee without using pressure and steam?

DavecUK

ascanio1 The problem is you want latte and cappa, which typically require espresso as a base, but a machine that makes filter coffee without pressure. Below is a machine that will automatically grind and brew, it’s relatively inexpensive as well and doesn’t commit you to pods. Melitta know what they are doing with filter stuff.

https://www.melitta.co.uk/products/coffee-machines/filter-coffee-machines/aromafresh-filter-coffee-machine-with-grinder-metallic-grey-special-colour-edition/

The problem is no one makes them with frothers, because of the logical exclusion of steamed milk into filtered coffee. This would then mean a separate milk frother which would take up counter space.

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