https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2016/07/29/melitta-caffeo-varianza-csp/

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2016/10/26/melitta-caffeo-varianza-tech-tour-videos/

I liked the internal system of the Melitta, especially as you could clean the brew unit properly and avoid the mould that would inevitably build up if you couldn’t get to it. Unfortunately milk frothing was sub-optimal and gave a froth that was too cool, which you had then had to heat up the drink in the microwave for 20 seconds.

Melitta then made a bad move, by removing the actual milk frothing wand from the other machines in their range, which meant the only option was the suboptimal frothing systems of the Varianza

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Sorry - I can’t help other than with the observation that I had a Miele B2C (a long time ago; the model is not even made anymore), and I could never get anything drinkable out of it in any form. Same for the large Jura machines we had in the office, though there I suspect the coffee beans had as much or more demerit as the machines themselves.

However… if I understand the situation right, and your wife likes cappuccino and other espresso-based milk drinks (macchiato, flat white etc.) I think you may be better served by getting a hand grinder and a filter pot for yourself, and getting something that makes the best possible B2C espresso - not least because the requirements of doing decent filter and decent espresso-based milk drinks in terms of bean type, grinding fineness, temperature and other settings are so different that doing both on the same machine could mean a heck of a lot of faff with emptying of hoppers, changing of beans, purging, re-setting of parameters and dialing-in… every time the other person wants a coffee. For the space of a V60 and a hand grinder, that can be kept in a cupboard, IMHO not worth it.

You may find these two videos by James Hoffmann interesting, although they don’t touch on any of the models you mention above other than the possibly the Melitta. However, he does talk about some of the points to look for when buying a B2C machine.

    We’ve got a Jura bean to cup machine at work. It cost about £7k. There is also a monthly service package on it at about £200 a month.

    A lot of the people at work seem very happy with it, but I’m not impressed with it at all. The pitfalls of having a decent grinder and machine set up at home. There’s just no comparison at all.

    Cuprajake thank you. I realise that there are bean, roast, grind, temperature, pressure, etc, differences and that they are on completely different philosophical spectrums but… it is what it is and I have to go along with this compromise!

    Thank you for all the replies. I will read and watch the videos and revert again!

    Grazie! Tommaso

    • LMSC replied to this.

        It’s a tricky one really.

        Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

        ascanio1 I have to go along with this compromise!

        You don’t need to compromise the quality of the cup to compromise! Unless you get beans from stores, you risk wasting some good coffee.

        ascanio1 bean, roast, grind, temperature, pressure, etc, differences and that they are on completely different philosophical spectrums

        Please explain what those different philosophical spectrums are!

              LMSC Thank you for your detailed reply that I appreciated.

              “I am not sure espresso to a long black / an Americano from B2C can mirror the flavours and the quality of pour overs from a V60 or a Clever.” Exactly! It is impossible because of beans roast, ground finesse, brew time, brew surface, etc, etc.

              We make 4 coffees with a Technivorm KB741 (that we own and we will have to retire) and 4 caffé’latte per day. But, for reasons that I cannot change, I can buy and use, only one machine and it must be a B2C.

              We already have a pour over (Technivorm KB741) that we will have to give away, or store in the garage.

              There are other compromises and other priorities that were weighed and, unless you want to fly to England and offer your services as free marriage councillor 😅 , the best you can do to help me is not to recommend excellent alternative solutions - that I already have but cannot use - but, please, help me determine which all-in-one coffee machines brews the closest iteration to a V60 or Clever or KB741 …

              🙂🙏🏻

              • LMSC replied to this.

                  ascanio1 England and offer your services as free marriage councillor

                  What makes you think I do not live in England ? I am a technocrat and a domain expert by profession and not a marriage counsellor! 🤣

                  ascanio1 which all-in-one coffee machines brews the closest iteration to a V60 or Clever or KB741 …

                  We appreciate your circumstances. It’s a shame you keep looking for a B2C that can also address your filter requirements!

                  We would like to help ; but, it’s difficult as some, if not most, of us don’t see that delivering what you are after.

                  One compromise you can make is pull an espresso and add hot water to make an Americano!

                  I think one person, besides Dave, might also be able to assist is our brew guru, @MWJB. :-)

                  @MWJB - Sorry mate, could you look into this gentleman’s request and see what you can do please? Thx :-)

                  Edit

                  Scott Rao’s youtube video showing filter on an espresso machine ! It can also make espresso, steam milk and can’t make other milk-based coffee! It can however give you an idea, which can try at your risk. 🤔😉

                        CoyoteOldMan Thank you. I watched the videos but none mention which would brew a close iteration to a filter coffee.

                        Also, I already own a Technivorm KB741 so I do not need to buy a V60 or any other brewer. I already explained why. No space on counter in the morning for two devices. I just got a toy car, and deal was that wife gets B2C. I chose house that my wife did not like, small kitchen, bla, bla, bla… the Technivorm will be stored and we will use a B2C. Period.

                        I really appreciate the kind intentions and I understand - and agree - with all the reasons but, please, it is not helpful to recommend alternative solutions.

                        We will have a B2C. And that’s it (sadly).

                        I seek advice as to which B2C will brew the closest coffee iteration to a filter brewer: least pressure, closest grind option, closest temperature, longest brew time, largest infusion area/surface, etc, etc. or by having tasted the various coffees brewed by the coffee makers on that list.

                        Thank you, again, for the good intentions, but … it will be a B2C, and it will be only that! Which one makes the closest iteration to a filter coffee?

                        Thank you in advance for your understanding and patience.

                            LMSC Thank you for your advice but, unfortunately, yes, I do need to compromise. It’s called marriage! 😀

                            The fundamental difference is that a B2C uses pressure while a filter does not. One system relies on pressure (that requires higher temperatures and finer grinds), while the other system relies on infusion.

                            There are three main variables, in coffee brewing:
                            Temperature
                            Surface area
                            Time

                            Filter coffee brewers and B2C coffee makers vary these three according to different philosophies.

                              LMSC Thank you for your suggestions and video.

                              Apologies for assuming that you did not live in England! In which case, condolences for your great loss. The best monarch (not only in English history but in the world) bar a few saints and a few historical figures. We were lucky to be offered the opportunity to pay homage to Her, without waiting in line for hours.

                              It is a very interesting video that (pleasantly) shocked me. The level of technical tuning that this chap goes to is unbelievable! Chapeau!

                              As for the compromise, as with all things, in the end, it boils down to priorities. Mine was a home and car over filter coffee: a larger home, a larger garage and a man’s cave, plus a toy car… for giving up an additional filter coffee machine on the kitchen counter, to avoid clutter in the morning, when we are all rushing out at the same time.

                                  You know a lot about B2C and coffee. Unless someone chips in with a recommendation that ticks your proximity to filter or you are happy with Americano, I am afraid there isn’t anything much to what has already been stated here. Of course, other members may still chip in!

                                  PS: Perhaps, considering your background, this is an area of expertise you may want to look into, try and check out who in your families and friends have B2C for you to try on. You may also contribute to our knowledge base in the B2C space. :-)

                                  ascanio1 Did you read my reviews and watch the videos of the melitta varianza. Although it might not be the right machine for you, it will be useful to get an idea for some important things to look for in any bean-to-cup machine

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                                      ascanio1 Which one makes the closest iteration to a filter coffee?

                                      The answer is “none”. B2C machines are designed to produce something ‘close’ to espresso, not to filter. We all appreciate your reasons and limitations, but there is no getting around that point.

                                      The fundamental difference is not just that a B2C uses pressure vs. gravity/diffusion. Dosing and extraction timing are hugely different; we may end up with a similar % extraction from the coffee bean, but the ratio of coffee to water is not the same, and adding more water to the extracted brew after brewing is not the same. I don’t know if you have seen the Scott Rao video above - which is made on something which allows a degree of control that no B2C ‘end-user oriented’ machine is able to provide - but the interesting thing for me is that it still ends up as an Americano of sort.

                                          DavecUK Thank you. Now I am focusing on my quest to find which B2C brews the closest filter like coffee as the other coffee maker qualities and specificities are not so important: my wife is not fussy about coffee.

                                            CoyoteOldMan Thank you. This is probably the most helpful answer which suggests that all the above B2C will make the same, bad, approximation to a filter coffee and, therefore, I can buy the cheapest one, even though, within reason, cost is not a factor.

                                                ascanio1 all the above B2C will make the same, bad, approximation to a filter coffee and, therefore, I can buy the cheapest one,

                                                Or, since they will all be equally inadequate at producing a filter-like brew, depending on how large the ‘debt’ is, you may want to choose one that makes the most decent milk drink for your wife. You’ll be having an Americano anyway… 😉

                                                    This might be sacrilegious to suggest and I haven’t read the thread in detail but could you not just use pre-ground coffee in a Technivorm?

                                                    I’d be interested to see if there’s a marked difference in flavour quality in B2C coffee vs pre-ground in a decent filter machine?

                                                    We had a B2C machine on each floor at the last agency I worked at (not sure on model, was massive and had a touchscreen) and it was pretty terrible. I never dared to use the milk functions as the thought of the old milk in the plumbing put me off. I’d have taken pre-ground filter every time. And in fact I did, with a V60 at my desk.

                                                    Edit: I see you need to be able to make milk-drinks on demand also. I guess B2C is the only way!

                                                    CoyoteOldMan Thank you as your advice is, once more, useful. Since all B2C have the same extraction/temp/etc for their “filter” approximation I will focus on the best cappuccino and caffé’latte. I watched the videos recommended and it seems that the De Longhi offers the best cappuccino so, I presume, also the best caffé’latte.

                                                      In a different forum was recommended that I look at the new Nespresso Next, in its various iterations, suggesting that it makes a good approximation to filter coffee, when used in the “carafe” mode (my choice of word, taken from the icon in the image).

                                                      I doubt that my wife will agree to this Nespresso as it does not make coffee based milk drinks so the whole exercise may be pointless but, does this Nespresso Next (or other B2C) make coffee without using pressure and steam?