I think I know the answer to this, but I want/need confirmation from those with more knowledge.

The reason I got my Gaggia out in the first place was because my cousin made coffee that tasted really nice in his Sage machine.

Is a Sage machine worth considering? If I do it’ll be specifically this one, which has a 58mm portafilter;

Sage Oracle Semi-Automatic Espresso Machine - Coffee Machine with Milk Frother, BES980BSS, Brushed Stainless Steel https://amzn.eu/d/5lBxNO1

I’m only joking, the gaggia really need heavy modification to get good results. My sage duo pro gave better results than my classic

Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

    Cuprajake Hehehe, but you haven’t answered the question regarding that specific machine - when compared directly to the combo I might end up with (Elizabeth & SPTK38)?

      Buy the Liz and enjoy your coffee

      And extra £1000 for looks on the ECM imo isn’t worth it. You’d be better off spending that extra money on a grinder

      The rabbit hole gets deep and it’s really deminishig returns once you’re in dual boiler territory

      Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

        I’ve been in your position, you can actually talk yourself out of a purchase playing each machine against each other

        So I would weigh up what you want from the machine and make a list.

        Most e61 machines will take longer to warm than the Elizabeth, there are a few that are close to it

        All e61 bar the minima will need the cams lubing after a chemical clean the Liz won’t

        Most e61 machines look visually better than the Liz imo, but if you like sage machines the Liz is only a small jump.

        I would get the Liz to pair with your grinder, get a nice tamper, some ims competition baskets and then look at a good water source so you never have to descale.

        Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

          Cuprajake

          Honestly you’re so right!! I keep thinking “what about this, what about that”!

          When you say the Liz is only a small jump from a Sage, does that mean I’ll get a decent coffee from the Sage? The reason I ask is because if the Sage can do coffee how well the Liz can, then would the Sage not be an easier machine to make good coffee?

            Sorry I ment the visual looks.

            The Elizabeth will likely have a little more longevity to it and it’s easier to find some one to work on the lelit too.

            The sage will be good, but the built in grinder won’t.

            Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

            Cuprajake Grinder aside, in which way is the Liz better, when compared to the one I’m looking at (the one that’s more expensive)?

              2.58, the person he describes who the Sage is designed for, sounds like me.

              I want great coffee, with absolutely minimal effort (which is why I now know I definitely want a dual boiler), and also pre-infusion for added extraction quality, and PID, all in making a great coffee.

              Italy made Vs China made, temp control and pre infusion control, should have a quieter pump too and pretty certain more steam power.

              Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

              The sage will be a good machine too, but it’s really over priced imo. £300 more buys a Bianca 🤯

              Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                Cuprajake The only reason I’m thinking the Sage any weight is because of the convenience. It grinds, into the portafilter, tamps automatically, automatically froths the milk without any real input from me etc etc. I just have to transfer the portafilter from underneath the grinder to the grouphead.

                Agreed it’s overpriced and I’m under no illusion about the price. But if I’m going to consider the Bianca then I have no reason to jump to that over and above the Liz (as already established in an earlier post). The only reason I’m even considering the Sage is because it’s going to give me good coffee with the least amount of effort. Unfortunately (?) convenience is extremely high in my purchasing decision.

                It’s because of the convenience aspect that I’m wanting a dual boiler, it’s because of that I’m wanting a PID etc etc.

                The Sage also has temp control I’m sure? Steaming power won’t be an issue as the frothing is completely automatic?

                  Lelit Elizabeth and a pucpress 🤣

                  Part of the fun is learning to use the machine,

                  It won’t be as automated as you think hahha🤣🤣🤣

                  Where about are you based may be someone local to try a machine

                  Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                    I would say that it really depends on what you define as ‘good coffee’ and how much ‘convenience’ also includes the ability to adjust coffee-making parameters quite finely. If you are a “one bean type, two-drinks-a-day, want to press a button and forget about the rest, it just has to be good enough” coffee drinker, then the Oracle is probably as good as it gets. If you enjoy (or think you may enjoy) experimenting with different types of coffee and different recipes/brewing parameters to get ‘better’ (often just ‘different’) results, then a more conventional set-up of an Elizabeth and a good grinder will serve you better, for less money (or the same money of the non-touchscreen version)

                    James Hoffman says it better than I can:

                      Cuprajake Agreed that’s part of the fun. But I know me, if I get coffee that I’m unsatisfied with I’ll end up getting frustrated and then want convenience instead (if I had the Liz). Believe me if I had the space for the puqpress I would have went for it.

                      But then if I get the Sage I’ll get frustrated “I can get better coffee than this”.

                      I’m torn between convenience and the Liz.

                        CoyoteOldMan I hear ya.

                        That’s the issue, depending on the day/my mood, I fall firmly within both of those categories.

                        I guess this is now for me to decide which will work better for me most of the time?

                            The limiting factor is the grinder. The built in grinder is just OK. My Niche is soooo much better. The grinder makes all the difference to consistent shots. I can make 4 in a row with my Niche and Liz, and all of the shots will run for the amount of time and volume I want. For example, right now I am going 2.5 to 1 volume in 30 seconds including the preinfusion of 6 seconds. That makes beautiful coffee, and each shot is about the same. It is the Niche that does that. My flow is so simple. I use the stock IMS basket that came with the Liz. It is a good basket. Once you get the flow down on the Liz it is quick enough. I froth and brew at the same time. That is what is nice about a double boiler. Now, it will take some time to learn any new machine, so give it a chance.