I had bought a Gaggia Classic (2012 or 2014 model I think it is), with all the necessary mods already in place (PID, OPV fitted, Rancilio steam wand). For a while I used it regularly but then I put it away and used my bean to cup exclusively. Recently went to my cousin's house who has a Sage Barista Express and he made me coffee (Union Roasted Christmas blend, Baked Apple, Cinnamon, Cocoa notes). It tasted miles better than what the bean to cup produces, not a surprise. What was a complete surprise though was it looked like it would be awful tasting. Shot ran really quickly, water, and he had absolutely no clue about ratios. That gave me an incentive to dig my Gaggia out again. Recently bought the cheap single dose SPTK 38 grinder based on Dave's review of it, to use with the Gaggia. I'm pulling decent ratio (1-2.5), in about 30 seconds. Liquid pours after about 7 seconds. But it tastes meh. I've tried various different adjustments, sometimes I get a nice result, sometimes not. What I have noticed consistently is that the temperature on the PID display drops mid shot. But this drop varies from shot to shot. Sometimes 1-2 degrees, sometimes 3 degrees, sometimes the drop occurs slowly, sometimes quickly. When I bought this Gaggia, it was always only as a stepping stone to a better espresso machine. Recently I've been eyeing up the Lelit Mara X2. Would I get better results with the Lelit?

Not a Gaggia user so others may chip in but I don't think a 2-3c decrease in pid temp is particularly out of the ordinary. I'd also guess it's not what's at fault here but either way more info would be helpful. It would be helpful to hear what about it tastes bad and what type of beans you're using. And what starting temp are your brewing at?

The beans are Union Roasted, Christmas blend, which they state as medium roast - certainly doesn't look dark. I started with 96degC (I saw this drop to 93 at one point) but then adjust it to 95 (with the hope it will settle between 93-94). Initially I was aiming for 1:2 ration in 25-30sec but then I updosed, grind slightly coarser, and increased the dose (that's what one of the espresso help guides I read indicated based on what I was tasting). What I was tasting was no sweetness at all, struggling to taste the notes indicated, and it tasted under extracted (sour). I first tried grinding finer (only a notch to start with) but then that made it taste more bitter, I never got the sweetness. That when I decided to get help from online guides (regarding how to adjust based on what you are tasting). My very first started was 14g in, aiming for 28-30g out, in 30 seconds. What I have no eventually ended up with is 15.5g in, 43g out, 23 seconds and that has been the closest to tasting with some sweetness and closer resemblance to the indicated notes. I'm going to keep the 15.5g in, go half a notch finer for my next one and aim for 45g out, maybe take it to 26ish seconds I think. I'm not sure if that was at all helpful 🙅🏻♂️

@"DrForinor"#p33271 the temp registered on the pid doesn’t always reflect what’s measured at the portafilter for small single boilers. In the manual of my Ito mod there is some scace data on a Rancilio Silvia showing that with no heating during the shot the temperature measured by the pid dropped from 94-88°C, but the scace (I.e. puck temp) rose to 87°C over the first 11s and was then flat for the rest of the shot (if you’re interested then download the “leva! 2.0 for Ito” from http://projectcaffe.bplaced.net/downloads.html, and look in the firmware manual page 57). On the flip side if you can’t disable heating during a shot and the PID is kicking the element on to compensate for the incoming cold water, then you can end up with the water being too hot, especially as the water outlet pipe is usually quite close to the element. The piping also heats up so there is less cooling. The Ito manual stated they measured a 3°C increase in temperature from this effect. In summary, if you can’t disable heating during the shot you could try changing the set point and seeing if that helps. Or perhaps the beans are just meh.

@"DrForinor"#p33276 do the beans have a roast date? If they’re a few months old that won’t help either

The roast date on the bag is 1st Nov 2022

@"DrForinor"#p33280 on the older end then, but not terrible. I usually try to drink all my coffee in the 2 - 6 week post roast window

@"hornbyben"#p33281 What do you do with beans that might be older than 6 weeks? This was the reason for me updosing, and increasing yield (it's what my search revealed for older beans), and it certainly improved it for me.

@"DrForinor"#p33282 accept poorer flavour if I end up in that position, and try to buy fresher or drink quicker next time. If I know I definitely won’t be able to (like decaf that I keep in for guests) then I freeze them. Most decent roasters will send you coffee less than a week from roast (assuming Royal Mail don’t take forever to actually get it to you).

I used to set my PID to 102 degrees to allow for the tail off in temp. You could try that to see if the flavour improves or not.

@"Jollybean"#p33293 Thank you, I'll try that. Given the drawbacks that still exist in a Gaggia with a PID, (and keeping in mind that I always knew the Gaggia would only be a stepping stone), would the Lelit Mara X2 be a worthy upgrade? I don't steam much milk. Usually make my espresso, add water from the kettle as much as I need them add milk straight from the fridge. But I want a machine that will give me consistency without me worrying about it or having to make unnecessary adjustments for the lack of consistency.

Gaggia woes

DrForinor

Cuprajake The only reason I’m thinking the Sage any weight is because of the convenience. It grinds, into the portafilter, tamps automatically, automatically froths the milk without any real input from me etc etc. I just have to transfer the portafilter from underneath the grinder to the grouphead.

Agreed it’s overpriced and I’m under no illusion about the price. But if I’m going to consider the Bianca then I have no reason to jump to that over and above the Liz (as already established in an earlier post). The only reason I’m even considering the Sage is because it’s going to give me good coffee with the least amount of effort. Unfortunately (?) convenience is extremely high in my purchasing decision.

It’s because of the convenience aspect that I’m wanting a dual boiler, it’s because of that I’m wanting a PID etc etc.

The Sage also has temp control I’m sure? Steaming power won’t be an issue as the frothing is completely automatic?

Cuprajake

Lelit Elizabeth and a pucpress 🤣

Part of the fun is learning to use the machine,

It won’t be as automated as you think hahha🤣🤣🤣

Where about are you based may be someone local to try a machine

DrForinor

Cuprajake Agreed that’s part of the fun. But I know me, if I get coffee that I’m unsatisfied with I’ll end up getting frustrated and then want convenience instead (if I had the Liz). Believe me if I had the space for the puqpress I would have went for it.

But then if I get the Sage I’ll get frustrated “I can get better coffee than this”.

I’m torn between convenience and the Liz.

CoyoteOldMan

I would say that it really depends on what you define as ‘good coffee’ and how much ‘convenience’ also includes the ability to adjust coffee-making parameters quite finely. If you are a “one bean type, two-drinks-a-day, want to press a button and forget about the rest, it just has to be good enough” coffee drinker, then the Oracle is probably as good as it gets. If you enjoy (or think you may enjoy) experimenting with different types of coffee and different recipes/brewing parameters to get ‘better’ (often just ‘different’) results, then a more conventional set-up of an Elizabeth and a good grinder will serve you better, for less money (or the same money of the non-touchscreen version)

James Hoffman says it better than I can:

DrForinor

CoyoteOldMan I hear ya.

That’s the issue, depending on the day/my mood, I fall firmly within both of those categories.

I guess this is now for me to decide which will work better for me most of the time?

CoyoteOldMan

DrForinor From my point of view - and I tend to tinker with stuff a bit, then, once I find a way to get a result that I like, stick with that for a long time - there is minimal “added convenience” with something like the Oracle. Tamping is not difficult, and neither is steaming milk, and that’s all the Oracle does ‘extra’. On the other hand, you lose out quite a lot of ‘other stuff’ that you can do with a good ‘normal’ machine and grinder set-up.

dndrich

The limiting factor is the grinder. The built in grinder is just OK. My Niche is soooo much better. The grinder makes all the difference to consistent shots. I can make 4 in a row with my Niche and Liz, and all of the shots will run for the amount of time and volume I want. For example, right now I am going 2.5 to 1 volume in 30 seconds including the preinfusion of 6 seconds. That makes beautiful coffee, and each shot is about the same. It is the Niche that does that. My flow is so simple. I use the stock IMS basket that came with the Liz. It is a good basket. Once you get the flow down on the Liz it is quick enough. I froth and brew at the same time. That is what is nice about a double boiler. Now, it will take some time to learn any new machine, so give it a chance.

DrForinor

dndrich You’re fairly certain that the Sage I’m looking at isn’t anywhere near as good as your own setup, that’s good to hear.

I’ve just bought the SPTK38 so I’m not about to buy a second grinder just yet. Will it still do the job with the Liz?

DavecUK

DrForinor I’ve just bought the SPTK38 so I’m not about to buy a second grinder just yet. Will it still do the job with the Liz?

It should do, I tested one and it had no problems. I was using a quite expensive VBM rotary pumped pressure profiling machine…I forget the model now.

DrForinor

DavecUK That would indicate good grind quality? Is the reason it’s cheap because of small burrs?

DavecUK

DrForinor It’s cheap because it’s chiinese and small burrs, but the burrs seem to produce a decent result. It will do the job, is it the best no….but it allows you time to save up and think about an “end game grinder”, from your perspective/needs.

DrForinor

CoyoteOldMan Yup, I understand where you’re coming from. And I suppose that is very similar to what I’m like.

The Liz is back on top

Cuprajake

If tamping is a worry buy a force tamper. They are amazing

https://bellabarista.co.uk/products/the-force-tamper-jelly-rose-wood-58-5-flat-base?_pos=3&_psq=force&_ss=e&_v=1.0

For me I’d still go the Liz, just for longevity, better support,

DrForinor

Cuprajake It isn’t the force I was worried about, more the levelling? Because of that, I’ve been considering this;

Normcore 58.5mm Coffee Tamper V4 - Spring-loaded Tamper with 15lb / 25lb / 30lbs Replacement Springs - Anodized Aluminum Handle and Stand - Stainless Steel Flat Base https://amzn.eu/d/2KcXLva

Thoughts?

CoyoteOldMan

DrForinor The Force ones are similar - self-levelling and spring-loaded. They are a bit more expensive (well, double the money…), but look much nicer.

dndrich

DrForinor I think folks so overthink this. Yes, for many this is a hobby like wine where they have very sophisticated palettes and really enjoy the whole process. They have all kinds of things they do with technology and gadgets, as well as more knowledge than I have. For me, I just want a reproducible really nice cup with minimal fuss that is as good or better than our local baristas in our shops. I can do that easily and consistently with the Niche and the Elizabeth. I use a standard 58 mm tamper. My method may be similar to DaveC. I simply grind into the dosing cup, turn over into the portafilter and shake then remove the dosing cup, tap the sides a few times to level out the coffee (coffee moves to the side you tap, so tap on the low side…) tap on the bench a few times to flatten just a bit, and use a standard tamper with some mild force. Into the group and brew. No WDT. No prayers. No RDT at my house as not needed. The process is quick and easy. My drinks are just delicious with nice properly textured milk and good sweet coffee flavor without sourness or bitterness. I am very happy where it is, and have no need for other changes.

Cuprajake

The force tamper pisses all over the normcore.

I know I’ve owned both. The normcore still has wiggle room the force tamper gives perfection everytime.

Cuprajake

See how even when flat it moves.

The force has a lip that sits in the rim,the build quality is night and day

Imo normcore are just cheap stuff

DrForinor

I suppose the tamper is something I can add later if I really feel the need.

dndrich

DrForinor You will need a tamper if you do not have one. I assume you have one with your Gaggia. But if not, a simple tamper such as this one will suffice. It is similar to the one I have.

https://clivecoffee.com/products/lucca-espresso-tamper?variant=40068700700760

DrForinor

dndrich Yeh I had bought a 58.4mm tamper to use with my Gaggia, which I really like, so that’ll be fine to use with the Lizzy.

hornbyben That’s great knowledge from a long term user that you simply cannot find anywhere. And those “issues” would have frustrated me for sure.

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