Gaggia woes

Not at all, you save a small fortune doing it in one go and going end game

Personally I’d cancel that grinder order and got for a niche or a df64

The Bianca has fast warm up, flow control through pump settings as well as the flow control up top. Would you use these pre infusion features maybe not, I prob wouldn’t but the flow control does really come in handy sometimes.

ECM make a fantastic machine, and looks are very important after all it’s not just money, but you will be using it day in day out, the exact reason I never bought an Elizabeth

Definitely read these documents about the Elizabeth from DaveC:

Review:

https://sway.office.com/YUuIpMmQlYAFkxIO?ref=Link

Quick guide and advanced features. Definitely reprogram it to his settings:

https://sway.office.com/S5J4d9Jp4Y9LdVFx

Maintenance tips:

https://sway.office.com/qoXHjmMAg4DeFX8b?ref=email

I would also say that the Elizabeth is a “very good machine” too. I think you will grow to love it as I have.

DrForinor I think so. I use it daily. It is a reliable work horse.

I’m only joking, the gaggia really need heavy modification to get good results. My sage duo pro gave better results than my classic

Buy the Liz and enjoy your coffee

And extra £1000 for looks on the ECM imo isn’t worth it. You’d be better off spending that extra money on a grinder

The rabbit hole gets deep and it’s really deminishig returns once you’re in dual boiler territory

I’ve been in your position, you can actually talk yourself out of a purchase playing each machine against each other

So I would weigh up what you want from the machine and make a list.

Most e61 machines will take longer to warm than the Elizabeth, there are a few that are close to it

All e61 bar the minima will need the cams lubing after a chemical clean the Liz won’t

Most e61 machines look visually better than the Liz imo, but if you like sage machines the Liz is only a small jump.

I would get the Liz to pair with your grinder, get a nice tamper, some ims competition baskets and then look at a good water source so you never have to descale.

https://clumsygoat.co.uk/products/sage-the-dual-boiler-espresso-machine-silver

That’s bother sage dual boiler

But like I say the Liz is still better.

Italy made Vs China made, temp control and pre infusion control, should have a quieter pump too and pretty certain more steam power.

The sage will be a good machine too, but it’s really over priced imo. £300 more buys a Bianca 🤯

Lelit Elizabeth and a pucpress 🤣

Part of the fun is learning to use the machine,

It won’t be as automated as you think hahha🤣🤣🤣

Where about are you based may be someone local to try a machine

I would say that it really depends on what you define as ‘good coffee’ and how much ‘convenience’ also includes the ability to adjust coffee-making parameters quite finely. If you are a “one bean type, two-drinks-a-day, want to press a button and forget about the rest, it just has to be good enough” coffee drinker, then the Oracle is probably as good as it gets. If you enjoy (or think you may enjoy) experimenting with different types of coffee and different recipes/brewing parameters to get ‘better’ (often just ‘different’) results, then a more conventional set-up of an Elizabeth and a good grinder will serve you better, for less money (or the same money of the non-touchscreen version)

James Hoffman says it better than I can:

The limiting factor is the grinder. The built in grinder is just OK. My Niche is soooo much better. The grinder makes all the difference to consistent shots. I can make 4 in a row with my Niche and Liz, and all of the shots will run for the amount of time and volume I want. For example, right now I am going 2.5 to 1 volume in 30 seconds including the preinfusion of 6 seconds. That makes beautiful coffee, and each shot is about the same. It is the Niche that does that. My flow is so simple. I use the stock IMS basket that came with the Liz. It is a good basket. Once you get the flow down on the Liz it is quick enough. I froth and brew at the same time. That is what is nice about a double boiler. Now, it will take some time to learn any new machine, so give it a chance.

DrForinor I’ve just bought the SPTK38 so I’m not about to buy a second grinder just yet. Will it still do the job with the Liz?

It should do, I tested one and it had no problems. I was using a quite expensive VBM rotary pumped pressure profiling machine…I forget the model now.

DrForinor It’s cheap because it’s chiinese and small burrs, but the burrs seem to produce a decent result. It will do the job, is it the best no….but it allows you time to save up and think about an “end game grinder”, from your perspective/needs.

DrForinor From my point of view - and I tend to tinker with stuff a bit, then, once I find a way to get a result that I like, stick with that for a long time - there is minimal “added convenience” with something like the Oracle. Tamping is not difficult, and neither is steaming milk, and that’s all the Oracle does ‘extra’. On the other hand, you lose out quite a lot of ‘other stuff’ that you can do with a good ‘normal’ machine and grinder set-up.

If tamping is a worry buy a force tamper. They are amazing

https://bellabarista.co.uk/products/the-force-tamper-jelly-rose-wood-58-5-flat-base?_pos=3&_psq=force&_ss=e&_v=1.0

For me I’d still go the Liz, just for longevity, better support,

DrForinor The Force ones are similar - self-levelling and spring-loaded. They are a bit more expensive (well, double the money…), but look much nicer.

DrForinor I think folks so overthink this. Yes, for many this is a hobby like wine where they have very sophisticated palettes and really enjoy the whole process. They have all kinds of things they do with technology and gadgets, as well as more knowledge than I have. For me, I just want a reproducible really nice cup with minimal fuss that is as good or better than our local baristas in our shops. I can do that easily and consistently with the Niche and the Elizabeth. I use a standard 58 mm tamper. My method may be similar to DaveC. I simply grind into the dosing cup, turn over into the portafilter and shake then remove the dosing cup, tap the sides a few times to level out the coffee (coffee moves to the side you tap, so tap on the low side…) tap on the bench a few times to flatten just a bit, and use a standard tamper with some mild force. Into the group and brew. No WDT. No prayers. No RDT at my house as not needed. The process is quick and easy. My drinks are just delicious with nice properly textured milk and good sweet coffee flavor without sourness or bitterness. I am very happy where it is, and have no need for other changes.

The force tamper pisses all over the normcore.

I know I’ve owned both. The normcore still has wiggle room the force tamper gives perfection everytime.

See how even when flat it moves.

The force has a lip that sits in the rim,the build quality is night and day

Imo normcore are just cheap stuff

DrForinor You will need a tamper if you do not have one. I assume you have one with your Gaggia. But if not, a simple tamper such as this one will suffice. It is similar to the one I have.

https://clivecoffee.com/products/lucca-espresso-tamper?variant=40068700700760