I had bought a Gaggia Classic (2012 or 2014 model I think it is), with all the necessary mods already in place (PID, OPV fitted, Rancilio steam wand). For a while I used it regularly but then I put it away and used my bean to cup exclusively. Recently went to my cousin's house who has a Sage Barista Express and he made me coffee (Union Roasted Christmas blend, Baked Apple, Cinnamon, Cocoa notes). It tasted miles better than what the bean to cup produces, not a surprise. What was a complete surprise though was it looked like it would be awful tasting. Shot ran really quickly, water, and he had absolutely no clue about ratios. That gave me an incentive to dig my Gaggia out again. Recently bought the cheap single dose SPTK 38 grinder based on Dave's review of it, to use with the Gaggia. I'm pulling decent ratio (1-2.5), in about 30 seconds. Liquid pours after about 7 seconds. But it tastes meh. I've tried various different adjustments, sometimes I get a nice result, sometimes not. What I have noticed consistently is that the temperature on the PID display drops mid shot. But this drop varies from shot to shot. Sometimes 1-2 degrees, sometimes 3 degrees, sometimes the drop occurs slowly, sometimes quickly. When I bought this Gaggia, it was always only as a stepping stone to a better espresso machine. Recently I've been eyeing up the Lelit Mara X2. Would I get better results with the Lelit?

Not a Gaggia user so others may chip in but I don't think a 2-3c decrease in pid temp is particularly out of the ordinary. I'd also guess it's not what's at fault here but either way more info would be helpful. It would be helpful to hear what about it tastes bad and what type of beans you're using. And what starting temp are your brewing at?

The beans are Union Roasted, Christmas blend, which they state as medium roast - certainly doesn't look dark. I started with 96degC (I saw this drop to 93 at one point) but then adjust it to 95 (with the hope it will settle between 93-94). Initially I was aiming for 1:2 ration in 25-30sec but then I updosed, grind slightly coarser, and increased the dose (that's what one of the espresso help guides I read indicated based on what I was tasting). What I was tasting was no sweetness at all, struggling to taste the notes indicated, and it tasted under extracted (sour). I first tried grinding finer (only a notch to start with) but then that made it taste more bitter, I never got the sweetness. That when I decided to get help from online guides (regarding how to adjust based on what you are tasting). My very first started was 14g in, aiming for 28-30g out, in 30 seconds. What I have no eventually ended up with is 15.5g in, 43g out, 23 seconds and that has been the closest to tasting with some sweetness and closer resemblance to the indicated notes. I'm going to keep the 15.5g in, go half a notch finer for my next one and aim for 45g out, maybe take it to 26ish seconds I think. I'm not sure if that was at all helpful 🙅🏻♂️

@"DrForinor"#p33271 the temp registered on the pid doesn’t always reflect what’s measured at the portafilter for small single boilers. In the manual of my Ito mod there is some scace data on a Rancilio Silvia showing that with no heating during the shot the temperature measured by the pid dropped from 94-88°C, but the scace (I.e. puck temp) rose to 87°C over the first 11s and was then flat for the rest of the shot (if you’re interested then download the “leva! 2.0 for Ito” from http://projectcaffe.bplaced.net/downloads.html, and look in the firmware manual page 57). On the flip side if you can’t disable heating during a shot and the PID is kicking the element on to compensate for the incoming cold water, then you can end up with the water being too hot, especially as the water outlet pipe is usually quite close to the element. The piping also heats up so there is less cooling. The Ito manual stated they measured a 3°C increase in temperature from this effect. In summary, if you can’t disable heating during the shot you could try changing the set point and seeing if that helps. Or perhaps the beans are just meh.

@"DrForinor"#p33276 do the beans have a roast date? If they’re a few months old that won’t help either

The roast date on the bag is 1st Nov 2022

@"DrForinor"#p33280 on the older end then, but not terrible. I usually try to drink all my coffee in the 2 - 6 week post roast window

@"hornbyben"#p33281 What do you do with beans that might be older than 6 weeks? This was the reason for me updosing, and increasing yield (it's what my search revealed for older beans), and it certainly improved it for me.

@"DrForinor"#p33282 accept poorer flavour if I end up in that position, and try to buy fresher or drink quicker next time. If I know I definitely won’t be able to (like decaf that I keep in for guests) then I freeze them. Most decent roasters will send you coffee less than a week from roast (assuming Royal Mail don’t take forever to actually get it to you).

I used to set my PID to 102 degrees to allow for the tail off in temp. You could try that to see if the flavour improves or not.

@"Jollybean"#p33293 Thank you, I'll try that. Given the drawbacks that still exist in a Gaggia with a PID, (and keeping in mind that I always knew the Gaggia would only be a stepping stone), would the Lelit Mara X2 be a worthy upgrade? I don't steam much milk. Usually make my espresso, add water from the kettle as much as I need them add milk straight from the fridge. But I want a machine that will give me consistency without me worrying about it or having to make unnecessary adjustments for the lack of consistency.

Gaggia woes

DavecUK

I don’t know if this is still for sale, probably not but…

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/685-lelit-marax-pl62x-with-flow-control-and-extras

DrForinor

DavecUK That’s not loading for me, tried 3 difference browsers.

DrForinor

Is coffee friend(.co.uk) a reliable retailer? They have the Elizabeth for £999.

I would obviously like to pay less if possible, but not if the retailer isn’t reputable. Paying any extra for a trustworthy place is always worth it in my experience.

DavecUK

DrForinor

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.coffeefriend.co.uk?utm_medium=trustbox&utm_source=MicroCombo

They have an office?

https://www.brayfoxsmith.com/property/onesixsix-166-college-road-harrow-ha1-1bh/

https://www.coffeefriend.co.uk/faq/where-is-your-company-based/

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/12857507

DrForinor

I’ll give them a miss. Shall stick with Bella Barista 🙂

hornbyben

Seems a bit unusual that they supply with a European plug.

Cuprajake

Nope buying in the UK go to Bella barista

I’m glad you went away and had a good read

I know the e61 machines are visually nicer than the Liz but her spec is amazing.

DrForinor

Cuprajake

Spot on my friend. I very much like the look of the E61 machines (always hankered after one) but after reading some it’s quite apparent the Elizabeth is almost perfect for my needs - almost as if it was made for me (by a great engineer, but didn’t listen to my preferences for cosmetic appearances 😅).

small physical size - CHECK
controllable brew temps - CHECK
stable brew temperature - CHECK
pre-infusion possible - WITHOUT difficulty - CHECK
still able to make milky drinks without major issues - CHECK

Honestly the only thing I’m not mad on is how it looks but if it makes my coffee taste the way I want, I can easily overlook that.

—

Thank you EVERYONE for your help and patience with me. I never even thought about the Elizabeth when I started this thread, now I don’t think anything else comes close to what I want right now.

dndrich

DrForinor You will come to like the appearance. It has a modern vibe that will grow on you. And it is so nice to use you will love that too.

When you get it put some cheap felt stick-on pads on the feet. Then you can slide the machine around on the bench for filling the reservoir. So much easier. And, make sure to read the review and advanced tips from our mentor DaveC. Great stuff he has on that machine. It gives you a head start on all other machines.

Uncletits

DrForinor Honestly the only thing I’m not mad on is how it looks

I’m the opposite and don’t like the “transport cafe” look in a modern looking kitchen - think it’s all the wannabe engineers who are actually behind a desk all week 🤡

I had an issue with a leaking boiler fitting but BB were brilliant and it was sent and returned back very quickly

Paired with a great grinder they are an excellent product @MediumRoastSteam has got great knowledge of how to get the best from the machine and is someone to follow

DrForinor

dndrich

I already have in mind to watch Dave’s videos on it, it’s first on the list 😄

dndrich

DrForinor He also has a number of long documents with a wealth of information. The links should be available somewhere on this site or the youtube videos. A must read.

DavecUK

dndrich I have decided to add some knowledbase articles with links to them

DrForinor

I currently use IMS baskets. Will sticking with these be fine, or is it a worthy upgrade to the VST baskets?

Cuprajake

Nah you’ll be fine not worth changing for

DrForinor

Excellent, thank you.

I’m pretty sure I have everything I need - I use it all with the Gaggia anyway.

My only concern is, if I do decide to use the standard portafilter that comes with it, how do I tamp? Is there enough space behind the spouts to rest a little on the worktop, or do I need a “tamping station”? (I really find that spout design horrible).

Cuprajake

Pretty sure the lelit of has a flat spout so it rests on the work top.

DrForinor

DavecUK Specifically to the Elizabeth? I did have a look but I couldn’t find it.

Cuprajake

When do you plan to order?

DrForinor

Cuprajake

I am going to call Bella Barista now and place the order, just after a couple of clarifications from them 🙂

DrForinor

Just called them, but their phone lines are now closed, opening up on 28th Jan.

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