Gaggia woes

DrForinor It’s cheap because it’s chiinese and small burrs, but the burrs seem to produce a decent result. It will do the job, is it the best no….but it allows you time to save up and think about an “end game grinder”, from your perspective/needs.

DrForinor From my point of view - and I tend to tinker with stuff a bit, then, once I find a way to get a result that I like, stick with that for a long time - there is minimal “added convenience” with something like the Oracle. Tamping is not difficult, and neither is steaming milk, and that’s all the Oracle does ‘extra’. On the other hand, you lose out quite a lot of ‘other stuff’ that you can do with a good ‘normal’ machine and grinder set-up.

If tamping is a worry buy a force tamper. They are amazing

https://bellabarista.co.uk/products/the-force-tamper-jelly-rose-wood-58-5-flat-base?_pos=3&_psq=force&_ss=e&_v=1.0

For me I’d still go the Liz, just for longevity, better support,

DrForinor The Force ones are similar - self-levelling and spring-loaded. They are a bit more expensive (well, double the money…), but look much nicer.

DrForinor I think folks so overthink this. Yes, for many this is a hobby like wine where they have very sophisticated palettes and really enjoy the whole process. They have all kinds of things they do with technology and gadgets, as well as more knowledge than I have. For me, I just want a reproducible really nice cup with minimal fuss that is as good or better than our local baristas in our shops. I can do that easily and consistently with the Niche and the Elizabeth. I use a standard 58 mm tamper. My method may be similar to DaveC. I simply grind into the dosing cup, turn over into the portafilter and shake then remove the dosing cup, tap the sides a few times to level out the coffee (coffee moves to the side you tap, so tap on the low side…) tap on the bench a few times to flatten just a bit, and use a standard tamper with some mild force. Into the group and brew. No WDT. No prayers. No RDT at my house as not needed. The process is quick and easy. My drinks are just delicious with nice properly textured milk and good sweet coffee flavor without sourness or bitterness. I am very happy where it is, and have no need for other changes.

The force tamper pisses all over the normcore.

I know I’ve owned both. The normcore still has wiggle room the force tamper gives perfection everytime.

See how even when flat it moves.

The force has a lip that sits in the rim,the build quality is night and day

Imo normcore are just cheap stuff

@DrForinor i think you have to value how much a minor amount of additional convenience is worth vs the question of could it be better. I’ve used the Sage Oracle a fair bit, and it certainly gives decent coffee as good as a coffee shop.

The few downsides I see are:

• single dosing isn’t that great and I think you get a fair bit of variability if you do it
  • obviously this isn’t an issue if you’re happy to just fill the hopper with a single bean, but in that case I’d worry about it going stale as it’s not airtight, doesn’t keep out light and gets warmed by the machine.
• milk texture is good for cappuccino (loads of stiff foam), but in my opinion not as good for latte/flat white. It works by a pump injecting air in (rather than it being pulled in at the surface), and I don’t think the bubbles end up quite as small or as well incorporated.
• the convenience makes it too easy to make ok coffee vs great coffee (that isn’t much extra work)
  • the autotamper means you can’t play with dose, you just take what you get. You’ve also got no idea how well distributed and tamp free it is.
  • while you could weigh every shot, run it manually so you can stop at the target volume, and tweak grind settings to keep it where you want, it’s too easy not to. In practice you tend to just hit the double button (runs for a set time) and get what you get, only adjusting if it’s really miles off. It’s very hard to tell the difference a difference of 10g in the bottom of a cup, but it makes a massive difference to the quality of the drink.
• I don’t think it’s built with repair in mind, so expect a lower lifetime. It’s really a kitchen appliance that’s trying to compete against bean to cups.

Overall though you definitely can make great coffee if you take the time and effort, and could lift the quality even more with a separate grinder, but you probably won’t.

One area where it does really shine though is if others need to use it. It’s a lot easier to show someone than doing it all manually.

Any machine can’t make beans taste better than they are, they can only extra what’s there, so once you’ve reached the level of an Elizabeth (or other equivalent), it’s really diminishing returns and you’re probably better off spending the difference on better beans.

Enjoy the deliberation 😀

The Bravo tamper is worth considering too. Self levels against the basket and uses spring force for consistent pressure.

Great choice

DrForinor Sounds like you’ve made the right choice for you. You’ll definitely be able to get some great coffee. Enjoy

DrForinor Congratulations, and enjoy!

Yes, as an Elizabeth owner myself I concur. I went for the Elizabeth as a very capable machine that had all of the necessary elements to produce top line coffee and milk drinks. I felt when I purchased it that it was the least expensive option that had all that I wanted. It has not disappointed at all. In fact, the more I use it, the more I appreciate so many aspects of the machine, from the easy programming, mighty boilers, easy cleaning, and small footprint compared to so many other dual boiler machines. Add a great company in Lelit and great online help such as this forum and DaveC’s documents, and it has done it for me. I will not “upgrade”. This machine was the upgrade I needed.