DrForinor OK, see what coarser does, with a downward tap & side taps to level. If, at the end of the day, tap at top setting 12 gives you the best flavour, then stick with that, but I tend to grind at the coarsest setting that gives good flavour balance.

    DrForinor Maybe I have started to be more/less aggressive with my taps?

    The key is consistency what ever you do to fresh grinds. That includes tapping them especially if firmly or near that but sometimes there is no choice especially when tapping grinds down.

    Something I have rather recently started to do. Side taps to get a heap levelish and a currently 2 taps down to get them to sink. First problem was doing that holding the portafilter handle. That’s swinging it so grinds may finish up out of level. I then use a 2 slope leveller. Net effect when they aren’t level is many flows starting with 2 out of the filter basket that merge to one at some point and wiggle around. I now tap holding the end of the portafilter and the funnel. That tends to leave the top of them flat. More flows start with 1 and wiggle around less. I am using 2 firm taps. I may switch to one and for the same ratio that will need a different time or a grinder change. I use a ~15kg tamp which some might think overcomes variations from this area but it doesn’t. :( I am painfully aware of this as I always use a 30sec fixed shot time and check weigh what comes out. ;) I like a challenge.

    Overall though the change has improved things. Obviously a higher yield as more of the puck is getting extracted more evenly. This isn’t channelling as such, It’s fairly minor variations in water flow across and through the puck.

        ajohn Yep, I hear you about the consistency, I just didn’t realise even variance in force of tapping could have such a huge impact 😐

          DrForinor tap at bottom, grind setting 14, better but still feels as though needs to go a touch coarser

          Tried the same coffee, at grind 14.5. 14g in, 35.9g out ( was aiming for 35g to give a 1 : 2.5 ratio). Five second preinfusion, 5 second wait, total time 21 seconds for this 35.9g. The shot looked quick, I thought it was going to taste horrible but it wasn’t too bad at all.

          Only thing is, at grind 14 I made it into an americano with milk (how I normally drink my coffee) but this I just tasted as an espresso. I’m not an espresso drinker as I like to have coffee which lasts longer (I find an espresso is over entirely too quickly), but even as an espresso it was actually delicious. This has surprised me!! It’s left a lovely sweet lingering finish in my mouth (taste notes were apricot, mango, jammy). I cannot pick out the notes in espresso form, but it sure was sweet.

          Does the fact that it was 21 seconds not really mean much then?

          • MWJB replied to this.

              Today i had a 65 seconds shot, as a result of confusing beans and grounded much finer than i supposed to. Suprisingly it tasted really good. They were the last beans in the bag so i couldnt repeat :)

              DrForinor Does the fact that it was 21 seconds not really mean much then?
              It doesn’t mean a thing. 😀

              Bear in mind that historically, by all definitions espresso is a drink made in 15, or 20 seconds to 30 or 50 seconds. You are within the more common 20-30s range and tasty shots can even be achieved at 20s or less if long in ratio, or targeted for a good tasting, but low extraction.

              Coffee takes time to brew, but brew time for percolation (espresso/drip) is such a poor indicator of extraction that it is almost useless. Grind setting & ratio (or grind setting at a given ratio) is much more informative.

              Also bear in mind that for a given grind setting & ratio, different coffees extract similarly in very different times, this is normal.

              Only be guided by time when results are really poor & the time is bizarrely outside 20-50s.

                  MWJB I think part of my problem is probably giving more weight to the importance of time before other aspects of espresso making.

                  Thanks for walking me through all of this, appreciated it!

                    People can play with time but I think that video I posted makes a fair point. For any significant change in shot time the ratios need going through again. It’s something I play around with now and again. It might be something I’d try if a bean doesn’t seem to give what it should with a 30sec shot.

                    I find straight espresso too strong to drink so use americano but my final decision on taste is when it has cooled significantly,

                      ajohn I too have noticed that coffee tastes much nicer, at a temperature considerably cooler than what you might expect.

                        This is a very interesting and informative thread.

                        @MWJB , what are your thoughts on making an Americano, I’d normally do what the cafes do and make an 18g in / 40g out shot and top up with hot water.

                        But would I be better grinding coarser and running the shot to get my desired volume without the need to add water post shot ?

                        • MWJB replied to this.

                          Waitforme Depends what you drink the most of & how big the final drink (plus how pretty you need your pours to be).

                          If you mostly make typical length shots to drink as espresso or to have in milk, make Americanos, but I’d use the minimum amount of dilution water to get the clarity you want. Longer Americanos can often taste flat/dry to me. I guess because the undissolved solids become more noticeable as the concentration of the drink gets weaker.

                          If your drinks are mostly ending up at 50-90ml, then you may as well just make them that way, but I would only do this with a spouted portafilter as the longer shots will look awful.

                            Another shot confirmation. Taste notes, berry, citrus, caramel, roasted 22 Dec 2022.

                            • First shot, 14g : 36g, 21sec, grind 14.5. Some sweetness, some bitterness
                            • Second shot, 14g : 40g, 23sec, grind 14. No sweetness, very smoky.
                            • Third shot (I figured the yield was too high), 14g 31.7g, 23sec, grind 13. More sweetness, very very little bitterness.

                            I’m thinking charge grind 1 notch finer to keep within 20-30 sec, but decrease output to 28-30g. Am I along the right train of thought?

                              DrForinor I wouldn’t generally be changing both grind & ratio at a single adjustment.

                              I’d also try and quantify with a score, so there is frame of reference, like how much better can the “sweet, very very little bittereness” shot be? If it’s 7/9 then there’s obvious room for improvement, but if it’s 8/9 might be as good as you get?

                              I’d try 1 notch finer at same ratio, if it flattens off, then try a shorter shot.

                              Out of interest, what is the origin?

                              Ignore the time if it tastes good/ballpark. If you used the finest useable grind then poured 70g of boiling water over the 14g grounds in a cup, they would never properly extract. That is how little influence time (alone) has on extraction.

                                  The change from first to second shot was marked, as was the difference between the second and third. I think about a 7/10 for third shot, but how can I be sure it wasn’t a 10/10? Meaning how do I know that’s not all the coffee has to offer?

                                  Origin is Brazil, Colombia & Honduras (it’s a blend).

                                    DrForinor 10/10 would be the best coffee on Earth perfectly brewed…I mean it might be, but the odds against & reasonable expectation make this unlikely 😀

                                    If it is a 10/10 enjoy it while you can, you may not get another one for months.

                                    The only way to know is methodically work back a little finer, a little shorter until it starts all tasting worse again, then go back to best shot parameters. When you are on a good tasting setting, make a few at that setting, get an idea of what natural variation is like, before jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.😀

                                      Hehehehe, ok I have something to work with at least 🤣

                                      MWJB I’d try 1 notch finer at same ratio, if it flattens off, then try a shorter shot.

                                      I thought you only go finer if you get sour?

                                        DrForinor Third shot (I figured the yield was too high), 14g 31.7g, 23sec, grind 13. More sweetness, very very little bitterness.

                                        You’re looking here to see if extracting a little more will start to introduce bitterness, or extract the sweetest shot. If you get smoky bitterness, or flat siltiness at 32g out, knock a little off the ratio. Or….make a few more at “third shot” settings to see if it is repeatable.

                                        The idea is to be methodical, work in one direction until things start going wrong, then back track.

                                        For your second shot you went finer (to lift extraction), and longer in ratio, (lifting it further) and got “smoky”. You said shot 1 was “bitter” rather than “smoky” so it’s not as clear what the fault was with this one.

                                        3rd shot being shorter (even at a slightly finer grind) was likely a lower extraction than 2nd, maybe there is more to come at finer (I would hope so at 7/10)? Maybe you’re already at the limit?

                                          Ok ok I’m following the logic there, thanks!!

                                          Same coffee, grind size 12 (1 finer than my last shot), 14g in, 32.1g out, 27 sec total. Some sweetness but slightly less than in shot 3, much nicer body and mouthfeel, got caramel which I wasn’t getting before, and some of the smoky thing going from shot 2 which I didn’t enjoy (very faint but it’s there).

                                          This shot has been the most balanced by far, and the aftertaste in the mouth also feels the most balanced, the most pleasant.

                                          So now it would be best to keep it at the same grind, but pull it to perhaps 30g? or a straight 1 : 2, so 28g?