Stuck filter basket

MBdoc

Recently I find that my ridgeless IMS basket occasionally gets stuck on the brewgroup when I remove the portafilter. It only happens when it is hot. Usually a jiggle releases it but today it was very solidly stuck and I had to lever it off with a spoon. I am tempted to remove the brass block from the brewhead and turn it down slightly to increase cleanse between it and the basket. Has anyone got a better solution?

MediumRoastSteam

MBdoc yes.

If the basket is getting stuck, you could either buy a ridged basket or you can increase the tension of the PF spring, so it grabs the basket more intensely.

MBdoc

Thanks. I have the standard ridged basket but changed to a ridgeless IMS as I was getting a lot of pucks stuck on the screen when removing the portafilter. This doesn’t happen with the straight sided IMS basket. I have adjusted the spring to increase the ‘grip’ on the basket but it’s still quite easy to remove. Today the basket was really locked onto the brewhead and really hard to remove it. I usually fit the portafilter quite loosely when I switch on in the morning and leave it to heat up - often about an hour before first coffee.
I am pretty sure it’s getting stuck on the brass part as the basket has a score mark on the inside which corresponds with the edge of the brass disc. It never happens when there is coffee in the basket.

MediumRoastSteam

MBdoc oh! I see! This would happen most likely if the basket is wet, and would form a vacuum.

Make sure the basket is bone dry, and make sure your group is not dripping. Let’s go from there.

MBdoc

The basket is usually slightly wet but was dry today. I can’t see how it could be due to ‘vacuum’ as this could not be maintained with the ‘open’ perforations on the bottom of the basket. It seemed to be very solidly stuck under the brewhead and as it is smaller diameter at the top than the inside of the brewhead it must be stuck on the brass disc.

Amberale

I would either try another basket as this one may not fit or….
dose a bit smaller.
It could be the expanded puck sticking to the shower that is causing the problem.
Try a gram lighter and see how you go.

MBdoc

Amberale The puck doesn’t stick with this basket. I dose 20 g in the basket which seems about right for two lattes.

MBdoc

I have just had another look at this. When I remove the brass disc and drop it into the basket the score mark on the basket matches exactly the top of the brass disc. I note that the hole in the centre is larger than the screw so it occurred to me that when I fit the disc and scre it up it could be slightly off centre (ie not concentric with the inside of the brewhead) so I tried leaving the screw just snug then fitting the portafilter and tightening it to centre the disc in the basket before removing the portafilter and then tightening the screw.
An alternative might be to leave the screw tightened only ‘snug’ to allow the disc to move slightly.
Any other ideas before I try to reduce the diameter of the disc at the top edge ( it is very slightly tapered towards the bottom)?

Amberale

I use 18g in a 18g Lelit basket for 1 latte.
However I have no idea what machine or basket size you are using.
My thoughts are that the puck could be holding on to the shower screen more than the basket holds to the porterfilter but less than it holds on to the basket.
Anyhow costs one gram less in a shot to check.
I would still be looking for the correct size basket before modifying the machine.

MBdoc

Thank you for the ideas. The basket doesn’t stick if it’s full of coffee only when it is empty during initial warmup. It’s an IMS basket on Lelit Elizabeth.

MediumRoastSteam

Amberale - you are missing the point. The basket is empty when it sticks. It doesn’t stick with coffee in. 😊😉👍

MBdoc ideas. The basket doesn’t stick if it’s full of coffee only when it is empty during initial warmup. It’s an IMS basket on Lelit Elizabeth.

For what’s worth, I used IMS, VST, Lelit original (now it’s made by IMS anyway) and never* had this problem.

*It did happen to me a couple of times, but only when the basket was wet (e.g: I washed the basket beforehand) and I then went about the warm up routine.

All with the Elizabeth.

Amberale

I can only imagine that the IMS basket is slightly narrower than the Lelit.
If you dose less in the Lelit basket the puck should not stick to the shower screen.
Perhaps a different basket :IMS competition, VST, Pesado might help.

Amberale

Oh, have you done the 5cent test for head space?
Prep a basket and put a 5cent piece(any small thin coin) on top.
Fit the basket to the group and then remove it without pulling the shot.
The coin should have left a very slight indentation in the top of the puck.
If the coin has been pushed deep into the puck then there is not enough head space.

Amberale

MediumRoastSteam

Sorry it was early morning and I hadn’t been properly caffienated. :(

My thinking was along these lines;
Mbdoc was having pucks stick with the original basket=possible overdosing.
IMS basket sticking when warming up=possible smaller than original basket.

If the original basket doesn’t stick then the problem is the new basket.
If dosing the old basket slightly lower stops the puck sticking issue then problem solved.
Does that make sense?
:)

MBdoc

I hadn’t heard about this one. I find with 20g in my IMS basket there is no indentation I I remove the dry filled basket. After pulling the shot there is a definite impression of the screen and a little liquid on top of the puck.

I don’t think any of this is relevant to my problem as the stuck basket only happens when the empty basket in the portafilter is kicked into the brew head and after it has heated up. It never happens when everything is cold.

I am going to slacken off the retaining screw so it is just past snug to allow the brass disc to move a little so it can center itself in the basket to see if that solves the problem. I don’t think it should matter if the brass disc is able to move slightly as I think the important seal is between the rim of the basket and the gasket in the brew head so any slight leak through the red o ring undervtgd brass disc shouldn’t matter.

MediumRoastSteam

MBdoc - well… if the screw is too tight, water somehow gets behind the gasket. I used to have this issue, email lelit at the time and everything. I could even squeeze the gasket with a chopstick or something blunt and water would come out. Since then I only tighten the screw literally hand tight, and then s further quarter turn. My “stop” point is when the shower screen can no longer be rotated with your fingers.

Not sure if this helps but worth a try.

dutchy101

I get this with my Minima. I’m using a ridgeless VST basket. I try to drop the shower screen every couple of days and wash it in water with washing up liquid - seems to help

MBdoc

Thanks for all these ideas.

I am clearly confusing some of you with my previous references to sticking pucks (ie the puck sticking to the shore screen). This is not the problem since I changed to 18g IMS ridgeless basket which easily accommodated my 20g dose for our two morning lattes. On my other Elizabeth I have a similar VST basket and, as far as I can tell they perform identically.

This problem is only that the basket locks onto the brewhead sometimes when I fit the portafilter just snugly on the brewhead when the machine is cold and try to remove it when it is hot. Usually a wiggle of the portafilter frees it but my post a few days ago was prompted by the basket being so solidly jammed on the brewhead that it wouldn’t release until I levered it off with a teaspoon. It’s too hot to try to remove it by hand and wiggling the portafilter wouldn’t release it.

My conclusion is that it must be caused by the basket and brass disc being slightly non concentric so that if the disc is solidly locked by the central screw the basket will jam if it is rotated slightly so that the eccentricity locks it in the groove between the brewhead and the brass disc.

I hope that by only tightening the central screw just snug it will allow the disc to shift slightly to maintain concentricity with the basket and allow even clearance all round.

I hope this rather lengthy explanation helps to clear up any confusion about whether it is the puck or the basket that is the problem.

If anyone has advice about the effect of any leaking between the red o ring and the brass disc due to the fixing screw being too slack I would appreciate it.

MediumRoastSteam

MBdoc My conclusion is that it must be caused by the basket and brass disc being slightly non concentric so that if the disc is solidly locked by the central screw the basket will jam if it is rotated slightly so that the eccentricity locks it in the groove between the brewhead and the brass disc.

But wouldn’t the exact same happen with coffee in it? And, as you say, happens without coffee, but doesn’t happen with coffee?

MBdoc If anyone has advice about the effect of any leaking between the red o ring and the brass disc due to the fixing screw being too slack I would appreciate it.

It depends what “too slack” mean. As per my post above, that screw should not be too tight anyway, it it does, it will cause some issues, which may well be related to what you experience.

So yeah, literally hand tighten the screw and then a further quarter turn (or two) until you can’t rotate the shower screen as a starting point.

MediumRoastSteam

MBdoc this seems strange, in all honesty. Is the gasket (seal) properly seated? try removing it, give it a good clean on the group and the seal, and see if that helps.

MBdoc On my other Elizabeth I have a similar VST basket and

To eliminate culprits, you could swap the brass dispersion plates (If I read correctly you have two Elizabeths?) and see if the problem gores away snd manifests itself on the other one.

MBdoc

Thanks for this comment. I agree it is a bit odd but I assumed it was because without any coffee the basket can move very slightly further upwards so it is more likely to jam. However, that said, as I only fit the portafilter so it just locks in place and don’t force the lever to the full lock position this doesn’t seem very likely.

Anyway, this morning with the central screw just snug the basket was quite free and I think it was a bit easier to lock the portafilter fully than usual.