LMSC Test both the GH — hardness and KH — Alkalinity
Please take 20 ml water for each test
1 drop at a time, shake and proceed further. You stop when you get green for GH and yellow for KH
Multiply the number of drops using the table
Divide the result by 4 to get the 5 ml reading.
The result will be X mg/l
Plug that on Rob’s excel and post it here.
For alkalinity, you need at least 40 mg/l, which you can get by adding 50 mg/l of sodium bicarbonate.

OK, so I’ve just taken two 20ml samples. For hardness (GH) the water started to turn a very weak green after 1 drop and then a bit stronger after the 2nd and gets to a more solid green at about 4 drops. The same was true for the KH test to turn the water yellow but perhaps 5 drops to get to the more solid yellow.

Looking at the chart, the ppm level for 4 drops is 71.6, so if I’ve understood when you say “multiply the number of drops using the table” correctly, I should multiply that by 4 and then divide this again by 4 to give me the 5ml reading, which would be 71.6 for hardness?

Using the same method and 5 drops of the KH solution is 89.5 × 5 drops = 447 divided by 4 = 111.8 alkalinity

I’ve plugged these into the relevant section of the table.

    I think the table is giving you the 4 drop measure at 71.6, which should be divided by 4 to get the 5ml result.

    Cool - this makes sense. I wasn’t sure about the multiplying stage (I guess not all kits have charts, but might give a formula to work out instead. The table now looks like this:

    So this is the state of the zero water in terms of hardness and alkalinity. I now need to work out what I need to add in terms of remineralising to bring it to boiler safe levels.

    • Rob1 replied to this.

      dutchy101

      It is much lower than that. The moment the colour of the water changes is the moment you stop adding drops. So you stop at 1 drop for each test. You need to increase the sample size again to get a precise reading but it’s pretty safe to say it’s below 5mg/l for both, so essentially zero.

        Ok thanks that’s useful to know. Wasn’t sure how much of a colour change I should have been anticipating to determine when to stop adding drops.

        Will maybe try a 40ml sample next

        OK, so taking 40ml samples this time.

        GH test started to turn green after 2 drops, so this would be 35.8 / 8 = 4.475

        KH test started to turn yellow after 3 drops, so 53.7 / 8 = 6.7

        I’ve plugged those into the table:

        I think at this stage, I need to focus on remineralising and then retesting when done.

        I’ve used the desired hardness and alkalinity from the example sheet of 40 alkalinity and 30 hardness which suggests I need to 48.8mg per litre of sodium bicarbonate and 7mg/l of magnesium. I’m thinking making up a 100ml solution using 2.44g of sodium bicarbonate and 350mg of magnesium and then putting 10ml of this into each 5l bottle I filter through the Zero.

        Then do another sample test using the 5ml tubes?

        Next stupid question: Is there any particular type of magnesium I should be using? I have magnesium citrate capsules in the house that I can open and take the powder from if that is OK to use?

        • Rob1 replied to this.

          dutchy101

          Right, firstly that doesn’t show you need 48.8mg Sodium Bicarb, it shows you need 48.8mg/l Bicarbonate.

          The table below that shows how much sodium bicarb (or another source of bicarbonates to add).

          E.G The Molar mass of Sodium Bicarb = Molar mass of Sodum + Molar mass of Bicarbonate (1 of each)…..the molar masses are listed on the spreadsheet.

          The amount of bicarbonate you want to add is = to the bicarbonate required for alkalinity. The amount of sodium you get will be automatically calculated to the right hand side of the table based on this.

          Underneath you define whether or not you’re making a concentrate. Since you’re not you follow the instructions for that, from memory you change “the amount of concentrate to use” under “ml” to 1, “to be added to” to 0 the “amount of concentrate to make” to whatever quantity of water you are remineralising directly. This makes the dilution cell read “1” which is to say no dilution is taking place and you then define the quantity of water you’re dealing with….if you want to break the spreadsheet for future use you can just edit the red dilution cell to 1.

          So the amount of Sodium bicarb you need to add is defined by the bicarbonate you need to add to get the alkalinity with the addition of the sodium you will also add by default to get that alkalinity.

          Use the same process for whatever other source of Bicarb you might use and whatever source of hardness you use, as you’ve decided you want to add hardness. You have many sources of Mesgnesium to choose from, most people go for Sulfate or chloride but I don’t like either and wouldn’t want chloride in steel boilers.

            Thanks @Rob1 - I’ll take another look. Trying to run before I can walk there I think lol.

            Minima coming on Tuesday - if I’ve not got my head around this by then I’ll do this, or try mixing some tap water with pure water to get to the right level.

            MWJB Ashbeck is about 20mg/l alkalinity, you want 40-50mg/l. Let’s call it 45mg/l for arguments sake.

            Sodium bicarbonate added to water gives a result of about 60% as alkalinity.

            So divide 25 (20mg/l you already have, plus what you need to hit 45mg/l) by 60 and you get 40mg/l of sodium bicarbonate, multiply this by 5l and you add 200mg to 5l of Ashbeck. Use 0.01g scales to measure this out.

              Ah, sorry having re-read what you wrote you are making a concentrate so it’s 10ml to be added to 4990ml….with 100ml of concentrate to make.

              RE Magnesium Citrate. Not sure. Some people say Calcium citrate tastes bad, others report nothing bad about the taste but rapid bacterial growth in water promoted by citrates. Citrates will contribute to alkalinity too, so that needs to be calculated at least. You could try it, just depends on whether or not the Magnesium citrate capsules contain only Magnesium citrate or if they also contain preservatives or other things. You need to know the form the Magnesium Citrate takes too e.g if it is trimagnesium citrate or magnesium citrate…or maybe something else.

              All this technical stuff has completely baffled me, I have done a drop test but now need someone to interpret the answers.

              Could someone please tell me which one has the least scaling potential in the two tests,

              My tap water KH 17.9 and GH 53.7, or Ashbeck/Volvic mix KH 53.7 and GH 71.6

              Ian

              • Rob1 replied to this.

                Eyedee

                Depends on temperature but the tap water won’t scale at brew boiler temps the mix will.

                KH is alkalinity, GH is hardness…

                Are you testing on a 5ml sample or 20ml? 5ml is not accurate enough.

                  Thanks Rob, Interesting about the tap water having lower scale potential, when the machine went into BB for some faults rectifying recently they said the boilers were clean.
                  I have tested the 5 ml sample but will do 20ml tomorrow and see if there is much difference but I’m inclined to revert to tap water with a monthly service boiler flush and do an annual descale.

                  Ian

                  So my 20ml test tubes and sodium bicarbonate have arrived and I put 250mg of sodium bicarbonate into my 5l of zero water on Friday.

                  Just done a 20ml KH test which took 8 drops to turn the water yellow which gives a 35.8mg /l for alkalinity. Would this be close enough or should I add a tiny smidge more?

                  GH turned green after 2 drops so hardness is 8.95 mg/l. Do I need to worry about adding anything for more hardness?

                  Can’t edit my post, but I weighed out a little more sodium bicarbonate - 70mg, (which was what it took for the scales to pick up the measurement) and I’ve added this in. Based on adding 250mg to 5l which took me to 35.8 mg/l, this should comfortably bring me above 40 mg/l for alkalinity (35.8 / 250) x 320 = 45.8

                  Hell’s teeth, I’m just upgrading from a Sage BE, I’m getting an ACS Minima and a Niche grinder, the thought of spending so much is making me sweat slightly but I’ve been consoling myself by thinking how much nicer my coffee experience will be.

                  But wait, now I find water, something I’d hitherto naively thought was the stuff of life, is actually the stuff of death for my new Minima. So, more sweating it seems, and more questions.

                  I think @DavecUK uses an RO machine, from reading this thread I think @Rob1 uses a distilled water machine, and then quite a number of people are going for bottled water - and each of those methods involve additions of potassium or sodium bicarb to balance things. Would any brave soul like to summarise the pros & cons of each approach please?
                  [Link to My Brain Hurts by Monty Python]

                  Bottled water.

                  Pros: It requires no extra equipment or investment.

                  Cons: It’s expensive (relatively). You don’t have control and rely on consistency when inconsistency is pretty much guaranteed. Lots of plastic waste. No matter what you do you’re not going to stop scaling in the service boiler without a lot of water waste.

                  Distilled.

                  Pros: Absolute control and consistency.

                  Cons: Takes time. Not the most cost effective method. Requires extra equipment.

                  RO

                  PRos: On demand. Most convenient. Good at removing most things from water. Can run with remineralisation in line so no faffing around adding things.

                  Cons: Less consistency than distilled, varies based on the water put through it. The filters need replacing periodically so there is an ongoing cost. Large (comparatively) upfront cost. Needs counter space or undersink space.

                  Tap water:

                  Pros: It’s…on tap.

                  Cons: Variable quality. Will have stuff in it you don’t want in your machine or your drinks e.g nitrate, chlorine etc, some of it can be removed with filters but not all.

                  Zero water jug:

                  Pros: Low up-front cost. Highly effective filters. Can be mixed with tap water to bring alkalinity and hardness.

                  No option is perfect.

                  Retested my water today after adding the additional sodium bicarbonate. It was 10 drops until the 20ml of water turned yellow = 179 /4 = 44.75 mg/l. Think my water is good to go just in time for Minima delivery tomorrow.

                  I should also say a huge thanks to @Rob1, @LMSC & @MWJB for their advice and spoon feeding this imbecile through all of this. I was worried I’d be returning the Minima under the grounds of being too stupid to own one for a while there lol.

                    dutchy101 Glad it is working out for you. Every one requires assistance. You are not alone! 😊