I've not got my machine yet (Minima), but will be getting it as early in 2022 as I can. My plan is to use Lockhills for the time being. I can't get into RO at the moment for a while host of reasons, but might do down the line (years, not months). Is Lockhills still considered okay for espresso machines (I know it isn't perfect)? It is a lot easier for me to get than Ashbeck. I also can't seem to find anything on how to descale a machine. I know the best advice is to avoid needing to, but I'm going to have to for a while. Is there a recommended approach/ process to follow? Cheers

It's probably the best bottled water. You'll need to descale the service boiler though, a fairly simple task however you do it (removing fixture or just filling with the pump).

Thank you for the quick reply @"Rob1"#171 , that's great. I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I'll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared.

> @"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I’ll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared. As long as you **don't engage the brew switch** until descaling is completely finished and the steam boiler refreshed with water a few times to remove all descaler, n**o descaler should enter the brew boiler…** It's easier than removing fittings…just takes a bit longer.

Thanks @"DavecUK"#p2204 Just so I am clear - do you mean you'd switch the brew and steam boilers on (leaving the brew switch well alone) put the descaler in the water tank, run the HW tap to then pull the descaler into the steam boiler, let it do it's thing, then flush with lots of clean water (through the HW tap) before brewing again.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2209 Yes, exactly

Got to admit I have only ever used Ashbeck, but still descale on a regular basis just as a matter of course. However, I would be interested to hear from other members here what they consider the best water (bottled) to be as far as keeping the scale issue to a minimum…Oh, and of course for taste.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 Should say really Lockhills will scale in the brew boiler too very slightly. Ideally, you could mix it with something to decrease alkalinity and hardness a bit more e.g. dow to 40mg/l alkalinity using something like a zero water jug, then it wouldn't scale the brew boiler. It's still the best IMO as I wouldn't use ashbeck. You'll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too.

Thanks @"Rob1"#p2289 When you say > @"Rob1"#p2289 You’ll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too. "As is with that one" - what do you mean? It sounds like you might be saying if I use Ashbeck and add potassium bicarb I'd avoid brew boiler scale and deal with the taste issue. But I am not sure that's what you mean.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2294 I mean 'as is' as in without adding anything to it but alkalinity is really low so you can get around it by adding potassium bicarb to avoid increasing sodium.

@"Rob1"#171, what dose of Potassium Bicarbonate would you add to a 5 litre bottle of Ashbeck ?

Bottled Water and Descalling Espresso Machine

Rob1

Ah, sorry having re-read what you wrote you are making a concentrate so it’s 10ml to be added to 4990ml….with 100ml of concentrate to make.

RE Magnesium Citrate. Not sure. Some people say Calcium citrate tastes bad, others report nothing bad about the taste but rapid bacterial growth in water promoted by citrates. Citrates will contribute to alkalinity too, so that needs to be calculated at least. You could try it, just depends on whether or not the Magnesium citrate capsules contain only Magnesium citrate or if they also contain preservatives or other things. You need to know the form the Magnesium Citrate takes too e.g if it is trimagnesium citrate or magnesium citrate…or maybe something else.

Eyedee

All this technical stuff has completely baffled me, I have done a drop test but now need someone to interpret the answers.

Could someone please tell me which one has the least scaling potential in the two tests,

My tap water KH 17.9 and GH 53.7, or Ashbeck/Volvic mix KH 53.7 and GH 71.6

Ian

Rob1

Eyedee

Depends on temperature but the tap water won’t scale at brew boiler temps the mix will.

KH is alkalinity, GH is hardness…

Are you testing on a 5ml sample or 20ml? 5ml is not accurate enough.

Eyedee

Thanks Rob, Interesting about the tap water having lower scale potential, when the machine went into BB for some faults rectifying recently they said the boilers were clean.
I have tested the 5 ml sample but will do 20ml tomorrow and see if there is much difference but I’m inclined to revert to tap water with a monthly service boiler flush and do an annual descale.

Ian

dutchy101

So my 20ml test tubes and sodium bicarbonate have arrived and I put 250mg of sodium bicarbonate into my 5l of zero water on Friday.

Just done a 20ml KH test which took 8 drops to turn the water yellow which gives a 35.8mg /l for alkalinity. Would this be close enough or should I add a tiny smidge more?

GH turned green after 2 drops so hardness is 8.95 mg/l. Do I need to worry about adding anything for more hardness?

dutchy101

Can’t edit my post, but I weighed out a little more sodium bicarbonate - 70mg, (which was what it took for the scales to pick up the measurement) and I’ve added this in. Based on adding 250mg to 5l which took me to 35.8 mg/l, this should comfortably bring me above 40 mg/l for alkalinity (35.8 / 250) x 320 = 45.8

Java_avaJ

Hell’s teeth, I’m just upgrading from a Sage BE, I’m getting an ACS Minima and a Niche grinder, the thought of spending so much is making me sweat slightly but I’ve been consoling myself by thinking how much nicer my coffee experience will be.

But wait, now I find water, something I’d hitherto naively thought was the stuff of life, is actually the stuff of death for my new Minima. So, more sweating it seems, and more questions.

I think @DavecUK uses an RO machine, from reading this thread I think @Rob1 uses a distilled water machine, and then quite a number of people are going for bottled water - and each of those methods involve additions of potassium or sodium bicarb to balance things. Would any brave soul like to summarise the pros & cons of each approach please?
[Link to My Brain Hurts by Monty Python]

Rob1

Bottled water.

Pros: It requires no extra equipment or investment.

Cons: It’s expensive (relatively). You don’t have control and rely on consistency when inconsistency is pretty much guaranteed. Lots of plastic waste. No matter what you do you’re not going to stop scaling in the service boiler without a lot of water waste.

Distilled.

Pros: Absolute control and consistency.

Cons: Takes time. Not the most cost effective method. Requires extra equipment.

PRos: On demand. Most convenient. Good at removing most things from water. Can run with remineralisation in line so no faffing around adding things.

Cons: Less consistency than distilled, varies based on the water put through it. The filters need replacing periodically so there is an ongoing cost. Large (comparatively) upfront cost. Needs counter space or undersink space.

Tap water:

Pros: It’s…on tap.

Cons: Variable quality. Will have stuff in it you don’t want in your machine or your drinks e.g nitrate, chlorine etc, some of it can be removed with filters but not all.

Zero water jug:

Pros: Low up-front cost. Highly effective filters. Can be mixed with tap water to bring alkalinity and hardness.

No option is perfect.

Java_avaJ

@Rob1 you’re a hero, thank you.

dutchy101

Retested my water today after adding the additional sodium bicarbonate. It was 10 drops until the 20ml of water turned yellow = 179 /4 = 44.75 mg/l. Think my water is good to go just in time for Minima delivery tomorrow.

dutchy101

I should also say a huge thanks to @Rob1, @LMSC & @MWJB for their advice and spoon feeding this imbecile through all of this. I was worried I’d be returning the Minima under the grounds of being too stupid to own one for a while there lol.

LMSC

dutchy101 Glad it is working out for you. Every one requires assistance. You are not alone! 😊

Frothbewithyou

Can I ask a water related question (without starting a new thread).

What is the best way to improve water quality from the tap without using bottled water? (No budge on that wife is adamant) Or is there even any point?

My water quality is surprisingly good (or so I’m told by someone on another forum) 38.7 - max 140 with an average reading of 75.6 CaCO3 m/l taken from 10 samples. (40-80mg/L alkalinity they said)

MWJB

Frothbewithyou Your water seems pretty good, if you wanted to monitor it & keep it in a certain range you could either filter it with/cut it with BWT Mg+ filtered water if necessary.

Best to ascertain what it actually is with a drop kit.

DavecUK

Frothbewithyou It’s worth mentioning there’s a lot of other stuff in tapwater that ideally needs removing. Chlorine, Flouride, particulates, sometimes the river water smell. Quality varies throughout the year.

Frothbewithyou

I’ll invest in a drop kit and go from there 💪👌

LMSC

@DavecUK

Do you keep the mineralisation catridge on the Osmio Zero? Like in your case, it feeds the coffee machine, serves the kitchen and drinking. The catridge improves the taste of the RO as a drinking water.

Alexvs

LMSC You’ve just asked a very timely question and similar to what I was looking for. I’ve had a chat with the friendly people at Osmio who recommended the zero after stating my needs as was also looking at under sink filtration. Would I need to do anything to the water coming out of the zero or can I just pour straight into my Minima?

We use a Brita filter jug for our drinking water and go through maybe ⅚ larger drinking bottles of water a day so want it to be for drinking water/juice as well as the Minima, despite the wife thinking I only care about my coffee machine now and not our health lol. I’m hoping the mineralisation cartridge would be sufficient as really want a hands-off water solution. I’d like to not be on bottled water for long term with plastic wasteage and all that jazz.

DavecUK

LMSC Do you keep the mineralisation catridge on the Osmio Zero? Like in your case, it feeds the coffee machine, serves the kitchen and drinking. The catridge improves the taste of the RO as a drinking water.

I do, it doesn’t add back much…but it’s enough.

dutchy101

Alexvs

I am currently using a zero water filter jug, which I suspect will give the same water as reverse osmosis. I am adding some sodium bicarbonate to raise the alkalinity. I am adding 320mg to 5 litres of zero water which brings the alkalinity into the right zone (I think it is suggested you need to add something like 67mg of sodium bicarbonate per litre of zero water if you wanted to make up less.

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